61st recce members

Discussion in 'Recce' started by Ganger04, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. Ganger04

    Ganger04 Junior Member

    Hi Folks
    Its a bit of a long shot but I have been asked by family members if there is any information out there on:

    Major Stanley G Alexader 61st recce died 24-09-44

    and

    James Elphic 13 assault troop 61st Recce passed away last year but left no account of his war service.

    Any info would of help.

    Dave
     
  2. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Taken from 61st Regt Reconnaissance Roll of Honour posted by Paul Mitchell

    Major STANLEY GEORGE ALEXANDER
    88303 – Gloucestershire Regt
    Who died age 34 on 24 September 1944
    Son of Herbert George and Annie Georgina Alexander; husband of Rosemary Alexander, of Tetbury, Gloucestershire.
    MIERLO WAR CEMETERY I. B. 13.

    more info here
    http://www.recce.adsl24.co.uk/regts/61st.htm


    The best thing the families can do is apply for the service records
    https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records
     
  3. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Dave welcome to the forum.

    Cheers
    Paul
     

    Attached Files:

    4jonboy likes this.
  4. Ganger04

    Ganger04 Junior Member

    Sorry should have said on my first post I have explained to the familys how to get their service records, thanks for the Pic will pass it on.

    Dave
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2080604/ALEXANDER,%20STANLEY%20GEORGE


    Here are the units war diaries:

    WO 166/750 61 Recce Regt 1941 Sept.-Dec.
    WO 166/6439 61 Recce Regt. 1942 Jan.-Dec.
    WO 166/10686 61 Recce Regt. 1943 Jan.-Dec.
    WO 166/14314 61 Recce Regt. 1944 Jan.-Mar.


    Is there any entry in his service records around Feb Mar 1944? It looks as though the units war diaries end in Mar 44 which may point to the unit being disbanded or renamed. Either way he should be easy enough to follow through the war diaries as officers are normally well documented. He may have had a staff job.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  6. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Dave,

    The 61st Recce was formed in 1941 from the various units within the 61st Infantry Division, which included both the 2/5th Bn and 7th Bn Gloucestershire Regiment; one of which is probably who Major SG Alexander served with prior to this date.

    The 61st Infantry Division was relegated to Home Service in 1943.

    Not happy with this, the CO 61 Recce, Lt-Col, Sir William Mount, Bt, TD., (this is a grandfather of the PM David Cameron) was able to obtain a transfer for 61st Recce to the 50th (Northumbrian) Division, which was scheduled as an assault division on D-Day, but which did not have a recce regiment.

    So, 61st Recce served with 50 Div from January 1944 to circa 30 November 1944, including landing on Gold Beach on D-Day, the fighting in Normandy, Operation Market Garden, etc. It then fought as an Independent recce regiment during the Battle of the Bulge.

    It is not known what happened to the War Diaries between 23 February to 1 October 1944, but they are 'missing' and there are a few threads on this forum that attest to this fact. So no help for you there.

    There is a book about the 61st Recce: 'Beaten Paths Are Safest - From D-Day to the Ardennes: Memories of the 61st Reconnaisance Regiment: 50th (TT) Northumbrian Division' (Howard). The book is an mix of the author's memories (he served with 'A' Sqdn) and material from the Old Comrades Association newsletter. It has no index, but during a quick skim read of the book I noted two references to Major Alexander, the first in an aticle about the HQ Mortar team and the latter one on page 138 in an obituary for Major EE (Tony) Macotta:

    I do know that the Germans severed this road twice during Operation Market Garden, first between Uden and Veghel on 22 September and at St Oedenarde on 23 September 1944, and 50 Div was diverted to assist the 101st US Airborne in driving off the Germans.

    It would appear that Major Alexander was OC HQ Squardron and that he was possibly killed during this/these actions.

    I have found no mention of James Elphic yet!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Odd that they stop in March then Steve - could they have been renamed? There must be a file for them somewhere.
     
  8. NickFenton

    NickFenton Well-Known Member

    Dave,

    Just sending you a PM. Interested to see where you fit in bearing in mind l was just looking for the same answers.

    Regards,

    Nick
    KenFentonsWar.com
     
  9. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Andy,

    They were 61st Recce from inception to demobilisation.

    It appears that the War Diaries were never distributed by the regiment and given that they had two different CO's during this time, as Sir William Mount was severely wounded on D-Day plus one, it would appear that the 'issue' was with the adjutant. This is my current thinking as:

    1. When Tony Macotta was moved to CO HQ Sqdn the War Diaries (apparently) recommenced, albeit I dont believe there is still a full-set thereafter; and

    2. Given the War Diaries were produced in triplicate, if they had been distributed by the regiment you would expect to find a copy somewhere; but there are none.

    I have no proof for any of these deductions, but...

    It could just be they are stuck in a box somewhere in a dusty storeroom at the NA...

    These diaries, if found, would be like gold dust!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    They may be in one of the 50 Div staff war diaries. I've had a quick search and noticed a load of 61 Recce 1944 citations so like you say they defo existed as a unit under that name.

    A
     
  11. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    It would be really good to find them, Andy; wherever they are.

    Dave, another thought regarding Major Alexander...

    There may be mention of him in the Field Ambulance War Diary, for whichever Field Ambulance was in attendance. I will be able to do a look up to see which was in attendence on Thursday evening or the weekend and revert. Matters are, however, complicated by the presence of the 101st US Airborne and their medics, who could just have been the ones to attend to him (if indeed any attending was required).

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  12. NickFenton

    NickFenton Well-Known Member

    Guys,

    I'm heading over to Kew later this week to look through the war diaries and see what l can find out so would be interested in any other references that l should look in.

    It is Major Alexander son's 72nd Birthday today and following a meet up of the family at a BBQ over the weekend, the family are keen to see what can be found out.

    Regards,

    Nick
    KenFentonsWar.com
     
  13. Ganger04

    Ganger04 Junior Member

    Hi Guys thanks for all the info and advice.
    Nick I have sent you an email with all the info I have.

    Regards
    Dave
     
  14. NickFenton

    NickFenton Well-Known Member

    Dave,

    Received with thanks, quick response sent and will be in touch. Fellow West Riding.

    Going to Kew on Tuesday to research so if anyone can add an area for my looksee, please let me know.

    Regards,

    Nick
    KenFentonsWar.com
     
  15. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Nick,

    There is an atricle by the CO of 61st Recce Regiment, Lt-Col. PHA Brownrigg DSO, in the 'Reconnaissance Journal', that Major Alexander's son may find interesting; link: View attachment Reconnaissance Journal Vol 2 No 2.pdf It is at Message # 22, Jnl Vol 2, No 2, Part 2 and titled 'TT41' (their Tack sign).

    It covers the journey of the 61st Recce Regiment from D-Day to disbandment in January 1945. There is another article by him in the book I mention - Beaten Paths Are Safest - at Message # 6. It is the best information I have seen about the regiment's deeds to date. These do not mention Major Alexander.

    I will revert tomorrow with some information of the general action in which Major Alexander was probably killed, but it is not definitive - merely a best guess. It will provide some possible cross references for your trip to the National Archives.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  16. NickFenton

    NickFenton Well-Known Member

    Steve,

    Fantastic info, thank you.

    As i'm sure you will appreciate, this is a real balancing act as to what he is told or not as some of the information can be a little upsetting but l can only leave it to his daughters to decide so the more info, in my mind, the better.

    I am going to Kew on Tuesday so please point me in the right direction for research.

    I will also keep Dave informed, who, l find out is a fellow West Riding Yorkshireman.

    Regards,

    Nick
    KenFentonsWar.com
     
  17. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Nick,

    I found this on the web: http://www.warcemeteries.nl/Alexander3.html

    Geldrop is immediately to the south east of Eindhoven and Mierlo also nearby.

    The ground element of Operation Market Garden started at 13.30 hrs 17 September 1944, with Guards Armoured Division commencing their spearhead role at 14.30 hrs from the Escaut Bridgehead, which 50th (Northumbrian) Division held.

    The 151st and 69th Infantry Brigades, of 50 Div [151st = 6th, 8th & 9th Bns Durham Light Infantry and 69th = 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regt, and 6th & 7th Bns Green Howards, respectively] had seen heavy fighting in the Albert Canal crossing and subsequently, known as the Battle of Gheel, between 8 and 12 September 1944. So it was that the 151st and 231st Infantry Brigades, of 50 Div [231st = 1Bn Hampshire Regt, 1st Bn Dorsetshire Regt & 2nd Bn Devonshire Regt] found themselves with the role of holding open the Escaut Bridgehead and then following Guards Armoured Division and 43rd (Wessex) Division, as XXX Corps reserve, along the main road via Eindhoven, Grave and Nijmegen, to Arnhem. The 61st Recce Regt, of 50 Div, were part of this reserve. The 69th Infantry Brigade were the first part of 50 Div to receive orders to move, which they did at 20.00 hrs on 21 September 1944.

    The German plan to thwart the Allies achieving their objective of crossing the Rhine was to evict the British 1st Airborne Division from Arnhem and its surrounds and severe the main road along which the XXX Corps were advancing to their assistance. Flank protection was initially mainly provided by the lightly armed 101st and 82nd US Airborne Divisions.

    On 22 September, the Germans attacked with 2 battlions of Infantry and 1 regiment of tanks and got astride the main road near Uden, 8 miles south of the bridge at Grave. Elements of the 124th Field Regiment, RA, 50 Div (along with other RA units) assisted the 101st US Airborne Division hold the crossings at St Oedenrode.

    On 23 September, the Germans tried to strengthen their grip on the road at Veghel, further south, but were driven off by the combination of British Artillery and Tanks, and the 101st US Airborne Division, working in cooperation.

    Thereafter, 50 Div [less 69th infantry Brigade which was already striking towards Nijmegen] were given the task of protecting this road, i.e. opening it and keeping it open. The 61st Recce Regiment was an important unit in this task. Two other Recce regiments also came under command, the Royals and the 52nd Recce Regiment. The 52nd Recce Regiment together with 101st US Airborne Division were sent to make contact and then deal with this German threat. This preliminary probing and contact had failed to deal with the threat by the evening of 24 September 1944 and so, the following day the 131st Infantry Brigade, 5th Dragoon Guards and 8th Hussars, of 7th Armoured Division, were put under the command of 50 Div and put in an attack, a few hours after the 101st US airborne Division had, in the area of Schijndel; whence the Germans has assembled and sallied forth.

    The road was considered cleared on 26 September 1944. Source: 'The Path Of The 50th' (Clay)

    The '8th Battalion The Durham Light Infantry 1939-1945' (Majors Lewis and English), page 290, mentions its Carriers contacting elements of the 61st Recce Regiment at Stiphout on 24 September 1944. This is located between Nuenen and Helmond to the east of Eindhoven.

    From the reading I have done on this - about 12 or so books with references to 61st Recce Regiment - it appears that 61st Recce Regiment were stretched from Eindhoven to north of Nijmegen ['A' Sqdn] on the 24th September 1944. Given the information, both, from the 8th Bn Durham Light Infantry's history and the war cemetries website find, it looks like Major Alexander strayed onto a landmine(s) somewhere to the east- south east of Eindhoven. The only information at odds with this is in Major Tony Macotta's obituary, which discusses the road to Nijmegen. However, this may be a generic use of the term 'road to Nijmegen' for the advance only got a little north of Nijmegen.

    It may be worthwhile looking for the missing 61st Recce Regiment's War Diairies from 1 April to 30 September 1944 under 50th Recce Regiment. There was a 50th Recce in 50 Div from 1 September to late 1941, whence it transferred permanently to 1st Armoured Division. It was overrun by the DAK in June 1942 and never reconstituted as a Recce Regiment. I have today found a reference to the fact that it had been mooted that 61st Recce might be rebadged as 50th Recce.

    The 50th Recce had started WWII as the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers; another to look at.

    I can't find a reference to the Field Ambulance that would have been in attendance, but given the Durhams were in the area the 149th Field Ambulance may be worthwhile looking at. There were two other casualties, so they must have been looked after somewhere and then evacuated somewhere else.

    And what Andy said at Message # 10...

    I trust that this assists and I hope your seach goes well.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  18. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Appendix One from Only the Enemy in Front states.

    61st Reconnaissance Regt transferred to 50th (Northumbrian) Division for the Invasion of Europe, the Regiment landed on "D" Day to provide contact detachments on Gold Beach before fighting in the battles forNormandy and the advance to the Low Countries.

    Although 50th Division was disbanded, 61 Recce survived for a time during the Ardennes battles but was disbanded in early 1945.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  19. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    One other avenue you may wish to consider Nick is contacting forum member, 'Chottie's Daughter'. On her profile is a link to a blog she runs and is mainly centered on a relationship involving Lt. 'Dicker' Williams, 61st Recce Regiment.

    The blog is completed up to June 1944 and I think that the way it is updated will see September 1944 populated in September 2014.

    It may be that Chottie's Daughter has some information regarding Major Alexander in one of Lt Williams' letters to Chottie...

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    WO 171/577 59 Recce Regt. 1944 Jan.-Sept ?
     

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