6 Durham Light Infantry - 16th June 1940 ? ? ? ?

Hope someone can help me out on this one.

Looking through the casualty list for the 6th Durham Light Infantry for June 1940 I noticed seven casualties for the date 16th June 1940 the majority of the battalion left from the Mole on the 1st/2nd June and whilst I appreciate that there were quite a number of displaced men from various units in France at this time it still seems strange that seven soldiers from the same regiment/battalion (according to Geoffs search engine UK casualties were 72) died on this same day.Six are listed on the Dunkirk Memorial whilst one is buried in Dunkirk itself.(The buried soldier I assume did die of wounds ) Anyone aware of anything significant on this day that I`ve overlooked ?

Verrieres

Ps I`m aware of the Lancastria sinking on the 17th June and four DLI are amongst those missing but I do not think this incident is related.

 

Looked through the Relevant Files Jim.
These show several ships sunk around that time but exact dates not given.
Could it be C.W.G.C. using the date last seen rule as D.O.D.

Brian

 

Looked through the Relevant Files Jim.
These show several ships sunk around that time but exact dates not given.
Could it be C.W.G.C. using the date last seen rule as D.O.D.

Brian


HHmmmm..Thats what I was thinking its pretty confusing really because often they post TWO dates as died between ..but not always..Thanks for that...

Verrieres

 

I think the 'died of wounds' is rather credible...I've just took possession of a book called 'Dunkirk, The men they left behind'. I wounder if there is anything in there?

I know those that became PoW's were marched to Poland and Germany but what of those to ill to move?

Does anyone know what happened to the casualties at Dunkirk after the 2nd?

Andy

Edit: No mention of DLI except a private shagging a German lass after he was captured and forced to join the German Army or be shot !

 

I think the 'died of wounds' is rather credible...I've just took possession of a book called 'Dunkirk, The men they left behind'. I wounder if there is anything in there?

I know those that became PoW's were marched to Poland and Germany but what of those to ill to move?

Does anyone know what happened to the casualties at Dunkirk after the 2nd?

Andy
Its a possibility but unusual that six or seven from the same battalion died on the same day and not in any recorded battle related incident..and if they died of wounds it would indicate by the date that they were presumably (rightly or wrongly) Prisoners of war...why were their identities not known..no known graves commemorated on a memorial....its a mystery I asked the question in the hope I was missing something really obvious..perhaps I`ll never know,,,Cheers anyway

Verrieres

 

Thinking out aloud.....Bearing in mind Brians suggestion that the 16th June was the date CWGC used as a `last seen`...would it have been plausible for my group of six 6th DLI men (not including the lad buried at Dunkirk)..knowing that escape from Dunkirk had passed them by...decided to head westwards ...I have heard that during a Luftwaffe raid on Rennes Railway station trains packed with fleeing troops and civilians were caught in the blast of an ammunition train blowing the occupants literally to pieces...hence no graves...the date 17th June 1940.....is this Plausable...only those known to have been on the train or identifiable remains would have made up the official casualty lists..the unknowns...sadly will remain as such.....would they have still been commemorated at Dunkirk ? or am I looking too hard for a complicated explaination?

Verrieres

 

Jim,
I have a P.O.W. Casualty with D.O.D. 13/2/42.
Later released Documentation tells me he died on the Ariosto 15/2/42. This was probably established sometime after the incident.The 13th would be the date he boarded the ship and was seen by someone boarding the Atlas that loaded at the same time.

It could be that your man was seen on the Quay on the 16th.

Perhaps there would be an answer in the Recommended File WO 361/41. Or even WO 361/114 which refers to the bombing of the Train. The recent release of this series of Files has answered many questions. There is information here that C.W.G.C. do not have.

Brian

 

Jim,
I have a P.O.W. Casualty with D.O.D. 13/2/42.
Later released Documentation tells me he died on the Ariosto 15/2/42. This was probably established sometime after the incident.The 13th would be the date he boarded the ship and was seen by someone boarding the Atlas that loaded at the same time.

It could be that your man was seen on the Quay on the 16th.

Perhaps there would be an answer in the Recommended File WO 361/41. Or even WO 361/114 which refers to the bombing of the Train. The recent release of this series of Files has answered many questions. There is information here that C.W.G.C. do not have.

Brian

Yes you`re right Brian ..I could second guess this one forever and still come up with the wrong conclusion
Cheers Brian
Verrieres

 

YES!!
The Memorial is for all those killed with no known grave.




CWGC :: Cemetery Details


Thanks !Just Checking ..Some of those thought to be on the Lancastria have since been proven to have been at Rennes..
Full identifiable casualty list for both incidents at
Rennes bombing 17th June 1940
Roll of Honour for HMT LANCASTRIA

Verrieres

16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
BRAMHALD. E 4457000 6TH BN
DINSLEY.J.W 4453268 6TH BN
KIRKUP.R.S 4455818 6TH BN
MCCULLAGH. P 4034223 6TH BN
SIMPSON.J.R 4447918 6TH BN
SYMONDS. K.C 4034261 6TH BN
WRIGHT. J.T 4454326 6TH BN

 

Hi Jim,

Just going through old threads as I do now and then-Have you progressed any further with this? I'm a bit intrigued by it.

I'm inclined to think that if they all died together then with one of them being buried in Dunkirk they all died in Dunkirk and with six missing that would suggest an explosion of sorts like you said ref the train. Bramhald would have been buried at Rennes though (Assuming they were altogether etc). A long shot but I wonder if they were clearing the debris in the town after they surrendered and a UXB was detonated. I've seen pictures of PoW's helping to clear debris in France during the 1940 campaign and lets face it Dunkirk was a mess after the evacuation. Just a thought and maybe the Durham's missing men file may have something in it.

001 BRAMHALD E 4457000 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
002 DINSLEY JW 4453268 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
003 KIRKUP RS 4455818 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
004 MCCULLAGH P 4034223 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
005 SIMPSON JR 4447918 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
006 SYMONDS KC 4034261 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
007 WRIGHT JT 4454326 6TH BN 16/06/1940 DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY

I noticed there was only one DLI chap killed in that train incident at Rennes but he was only attached and cap badged RAOC.

Regards
Andy

 

Hi Drew,
If anything the mystery deepens further with the recent thread on L/Sgt Wadley .Although the CWGC gives a wide date range he too is listed in the printed version of The Roll of Honour land forces, as 16th June 1940 and he too is 6th DLI..wonder if this is when the battalion returned their losses...because the original casualty/return lists were not with the diaries?
At the front of The Roll of Honour it states a check on a sample selection of the Rolls of one corps and four infantry battalions made against those at the Army office found mistakes/errors of 6.9% to what degree the final Roll of Honour was modified is unknown.Just shows what a good job the CWGC does with its Roll regarding updates etc because the original printed version sometimes has no day,sometimes no month and one or two listed only by year!
I think Brian is right I can second guess this one all night and still come up with the wrong one..the files may hold the answer to this one but regarding your Dunkirk theory it is more than plausable and something I had`nt considered until now.Cheers mate..

Jim

 

Hello Jim,

Harry Moses has responded on the L/Sergeant Wadley query. He has spoken to George Iceton MM of the 6th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry, who unfortunately can't remember Wadley; they were in a different part of the battalion.

I have, however, put a further enquiry Harry's way regarding the other seven men posted KIA on the 16 June 1940, as follows:


"...In addition to Wadley, there were seven other 6th Battalion men that I know of listed as KIA on the 16 June and 'The Faithful Sixth' lists six of them. The other is a K C Symonds.

One of the men listed is a Private JW Dinsley - his Army Service number was 4453268. On page 106, 2nd column, 1st para, penultimate sentence, of 'The Faithful Sixth' you state that an MM was awarded to a Private Dinsley.

I can find no record of the award of an MM to a Private Dinsley through the usual sources. Assuming the two Dinsley’s are the same person, could it be that he died before the MM was awarded and therefore, never gazetted nor the MM awarded? His award may have been changed to a MiD instead!

In addition, could it be that he died from wounds received in the action for which he received his citation? My thought here is that, if you are aware of the background to his citation and are able to share this, it may lead to an explanation for the use of the 16 June 1940 for at least 7 of the 8 men listed KIA on that date; or at least Private Dinsley!

Another avenue would be to see if George Iceton MM can remember any of the seven, who are:

BRAMHALD. E 4457000
DINSLEY.J.W 4453268
KIRKUP.R.S 4455818
MCCULLAGH. P 4034223
SIMPSON.J.R 4447918
SYMONDS. K.C 4034261
WRIGHT. J.T 4454326

This may be a big ask given that George is now 90 years old; notwithstanding that it may also be distressing for him!!

Are you able to assist?"

We will have to wait to see if he can assist.

Best,

Steve.

 

Ref Dinsley - Its highly unlikely he would have been awarded a Military Medal - Only VC's, GC's and MiD's were awarded posthumously during WW2.

 

Hello Andy,

I think the answer may be that Private Dinsley was put forward for an MM, but died before it was awarded. That's why I suggest that it may have been changed to an MiD.

What I am really after is any information Harry Moses, who wrote the 6DLI history covering this period, can give us on Dinsley's citation to further Jim's thread.

I'll post again when Harry has responded!

Best,

Steve,

 

One of the men listed is a Private JW Dinsley - his Army Service number was 4453268. On page 106, 2nd column, 1st para, penultimate sentence, of 'The Faithful Sixth' you state that an MM was awarded to a Private Dinsley.



Hi
The Pte Dinsley referred to here did indeed win a Military Medal ..in WW1 for actions between the 27th-31st May 1918.This man is A J DINSLEY rather than JW..He is listed in the London Gazette as 302273 Pte. J. Dinsley, Dur. L.I. (Willington). Gazette issue 29 AUGUST, 1918. Pg 10119.
Just added a MiD to my website which was originally a MM`s as Drew mentioned KiA.

Best Wishes
Jim

 

Hello Jim,

Yes, I just checked WWI and there he is. I better let Harry know that theme is a red herring. I will ask him to enquire about him and the others with George Iceton MM though, unless he thinks it's not a good idea...

Best,

Steve.

 

Hi Steve,
Cheers for that,I received an E-Mail from Harry this morning hes not been too well but is getting over it a touch of flu ?

Drew found another DLI casualty for Rennes...ARMSTRONG, FREDERICK GEORGE, F G Private 6395257 Durham Light Infantry 17/06/1940 35 Sec. 18. Plot 1. Row A. Grave 81.(Ex Royal Sussex)
Sorry same one didnt mention RAOC attachment in the DLI Roll.

Best Wishes
Jim

 

Here's Iceton's MM

The National Archives | DocumentsOnline | Image Details

I need to sort my leg out in 5 mins. Not sure what the connection is with this thread but I'll post it on here in a couple of hours if its required - Don't pay the £3.50

 

Here's Iceton's MM

The National Archives | DocumentsOnline | Image Details

I need to sort my leg out in 5 mins. Not sure what the connection is with this thread but I'll post it on here in a couple of hours if its required - Don't pay the £3.50

Hi Drew,
I think Steve has mentioned George Iceton simply because he is a Dunkirk Veteran (who just happened to have won a MM) and would perhaps have had a memory of something which may have been mentioned about the events of the 16th June 1940
His MM citation along with the others DLI 1940 can be found here
France 1940 - DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY 1920-1946

Best Wishes
Jim