6 Armoured Division Related Question

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by Drew5233, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Not being a 'Tankie' type person I have a question on the Div's Orbat....If someone served in 6 Armoured Division HQ Squadron as a driver do you think this would be the General Staff 'GS' war diary?


    I only ask as there appears to be a rather large collection of various 6 Armd Div war diaries.

    Cheers for any thoughts :)
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew

    I would doubt that there was such a thing as 6th Armoured Div. HQ Squadron - BUT - there might be a 26th Armoured Brigade HQ squadron - which was the Armoured element of that Division......sometimes we had TWO Infantry Brigades as well...
    Cheers
     
  3. kopite

    kopite Member

    Drew

    I would doubt that there was such a thing as 6th Armoured Div. HQ Squadron - BUT - there might be a 26th Armoured Brigade HQ squadron - which was the Armoured element of that Division......sometimes we had TWO Infantry Brigades as well...
    Cheers

    Tom,

    I've just finished reading "Mailed Fist" by Ken Ford and there is a reference to HQ Squadron on page 183.

    At the end of February 1945 the 6th Division came down from the mountains to rest and refit. The armoured divisions were re-equipped with the latest tanks including the 76mm Shermans and the Sherman Firefly.

    The book then states that "the HQ Squadron was provided with two 105mm-gun tanks". Does this reference give you any further indication of what HQ Squadron might be?

    Steve
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Kopite

    If you were to read that initial paragraph of page 183 of "Mailed Fist " again you will

    surely note that when Gen Murray brought the Division from the mountains to the plains

    for a rest near the sea ( this is when they had been right flank to US 5th Army - since just after ROME - Mc Creery wanted them back into 8th Army for his Argenta Gap Battle )

    and so the ARMOURED REGIMENTS were re-equipped with the latest Tanks -receiving the improved 76mm Shermans. Each squadron was also equipped with a troop of the new Sherman Firefly (this is now spring '45 ) with it's potent 17 pounder gun able to engage even the heaviest German armour on equal terms, and the HQ squadron was provided with two 105mm gun tanks

    Now that " HQ SQUADRON"
    has to be taken in the context of the earlier : " EACH SQUADRON
    of the armoured regiments " - i.e 16/5th Lancers : 17/21st Lancers : Lothian and Border horse REGIMENTS - each of whom had an HQ Squadron of four Tanks for the colonel - 2/ic - RSM and IO - the Division had an HQ - period - and didn't need Tanks

    it should also be noted that the Author was just that - not a Tank man
    Cheers
     
  5. kopite

    kopite Member

    Tom,

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Looking at my copy of ''Handbook of the British Army 1943'' on the pages about Armoured Divisions it says that the ''Advanced Div HQ'' had 8 tanks.

    Don't know if that the same in later years but that would explain how someone was a driver in a tank at Div HQ
     
  7. kopite

    kopite Member

    The following documents I recently received from Bovington "War Establishment for an Armoured Division HQ circa 1943-1944" also seem to indicate that there were tanks attached to HQ.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen/ Kopite

    Looks like i have been caught out as being completely wrong and owe everybody an apology -

    but i won't bother as i have already explained the meaning of the HQ squadron in the "Mailed Fist " which STILL refers to each individual Tank regiment being re-equipped
    at Riccione - Cattolica on the coast in the rest camps which had been set up after the Gothic line in the October time the 6th AD were in the mountains.....

    The 26th Armoured Bde - HQ to the three Fighting units - also had some tanks - but not fighting Tanks - therefore they were NOT re- equipped as the Brigadier was more comfortable in his Jeep to have a nose at any Battles as he could get the hell out of when the fun went his way....

    Equally - the Divisional HQ had some Tanks but IF you were to read page 10 - para One you will find that these were old clunkers and not capable of Fighting and thus were not re-equipped as now and again the DIV RA Op would have one taken out to swan around to have look see at the battle - but MOST of them would rather have their favourite Jeeps - even Monty borrowed a Tank to have his photo taken - no one saw him fighting either

    cheers
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Further to post #8 and with reference to Post #7 with it's copies of the Establishment of a an Armoured Division - it should be known by those unfamiliar with the army that this
    establishment - is what was laid down by someone in London War office far far away from the noisy stuff but from experience this was augmented by equipment - begged - borrowed or stolen from neighbours - or the enemy as happened after the North African campaign which found the 21st Tank bde of some BMW staff cars and motor bikes extra to establishment.....everyone knew this went on and so Inspectors were sent around to check that the establishment was being adhered to.....now these inspectors were old sweats with
    a good rank and so most units were given 48 hours notice that he would arrive at 10a.m
    tuesday next etc

    This gave all regiments time to dispose of this augmentation to establishment all out of the way of the inspectors prying eyes and with a good lunch - we could depend on a 100% good report.

    The classic example was in the desert after Beda Fomm when the 4th Indian Div was ordered to break off and make their way to Somaliland - this was quite a trek and Gen O'Conner warned the 4th Div commander NOT to steal any transport....too late as they were on their way and so a signal was sent by O'Conner to return all stolen transport - or else !!!

    Establishments were looked on as example of what they should have - but in the latter stages - they carried two security sets of initials - 1) BAR = Burn after reading and
    2) - BBR = burn before reading - we were big on choices...
    Cheers
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Wot - no more arguments about HQ Squadrons - guess that settles it then

    Cheers
     

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