4th Bn Lincolnshire Regiment November 1944

Hi all,

i am currently researching a crashed spitfire that crashlanded on 3 november close to Willemstad, the netherlands. apparently the excact location is in dispute. the 4th battalion Lincolnshire Regiment was close to the crashsite location after the 3rd of november 1944. they moved from "zwingelspaan" to "tonnekreek" and then moved west toward "Willemstad".

what i would like to know is if there is any reference to a crashed spitfire in their records, veryfying to me the location.

spitfire crashed info: spitfire mk IX, PV134, pilot: P Decroix belgian squadron 349, location D7348 (mentoined by service record, but also saying it is at oostvoorn(e) wich is NOT on that D location (its 25Miles to the west)

kind regrads,

Peter

 

Peter - there's nothing in the regimental history or the battalion history Saturday Night Soldiers, I'm afraid.

 

rats ! thanks for looking it up though.. seems that i need to widen my search. in the service records they say that they got the info from civillians, and 132 Wing messaged the crashsite info to the 349 squadron.

the search continues..

 

I wouldn't discount the battaion war diary

 

No, you need the money for more books.

Or have I read that wrong???

 

I only do complete diaries-Lee would do the month of November if a diary exists.

 

I have the wd of 4 Lincolns for 1944. It mentions being at Willemstad (what a lovely place that is to visit), but nothing about a Spitfire crash.

 

Hi Ramacal, yes, Willemstad is a great place to wander around in, my mum and dad live closeby. thanks a lot for showing me the war diary, shame there is no mention.

does any of you know that a Wing (132 Wing) also hold records? or do i then need to check out the squadrons linked to that Wing?

thx
peter

 

Hi Peter

349 Squadron were with 135 Wing from 11 March 1944 until 16 Feb 1945.

I agree with you regarding the Map Ref, as shown below.




This is a page showing 132 Wing Squadrons



Groetjes - Rob

 

thx for the info Rob, what i just want to get confirmed is the "info in from 132 wing, that the Pilot, Decroix was taken prisoner from that location, info gathered from civilliands'

now im looking into the 132wing ORB, but cant find it easy on NA..

 

Can't find the ORB for 132 Wing either. The latest one I've seen finishes July 1944.

 

right.. gonna be a hard nut to crack i think.. the search continues..

i got some more leads left, but thats in local archives and some people who still are alive to maybe seen the crash happen, i just need to get some time to go over there to have a search and chat..

 

Hi Peter,


349 (BELGIAN) SQUADRON MOVED TO MALDEGEM (B.65) AIRFIELD ON 2 NOVEMBER 1944. THE FOLLOWING DAY, 3 NOVEMBER 1944, 2 SPITFIRE IX FAILED TO RETURN.

THEY WERE FLOWN BY FLYING OFFICER GOLDSMIT AND FLIGHT SERGEANT DECROIX.

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION WAS TYPED IN THE OPERATIONS RECORD BOOK OF 349 (BELGIAN) SQUADRON.

“THE LAST FIX ON FLYING OFFICER GOLDSMIT WAS WEST OF BLAUWESLUIS AND HE WAS HEARD TO SAY “IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE FOR OWN LINES AM CRASH LANDING”. WE CAN ONLY ASSUME HE WAS HIT BY FLAK AND CRASH LANDED IN ENEMY TERRITORY.

FLIGHT SERGEANT DECROIX WAS LAST SEEN BY HIS LEADER IN THE MIDST OF A BARRAGE OF FLAK OVER STRIJENSAS AND SINCE THEN NOTHING HAS BEEN HEARD OF HIM.”

GOLDSMIT WAS LAST HEARD OF SOUTH OF WILLEMSTAD AND DECROIX EAST OF WILLEMSTAD. BOTH IN THE GENERAL AREA THOUGH.

HOPE THIS WAS OF HELP.

CHEERS - ROB

 

hi, this part i know, i also now know that the crash location of Goldsmit was in fact at Amstelwijck close to Dordrecht. I just need to check out a letter from the resistance about this. The letter resides in the archives of Dordrecth. one other thing is that we have a gap in where he was firstly buried, we assume he was first buried next or close to his plane, as he was moved to the main cemetary in Dordrecht in july 1945.

on Decroix, we 'think' that the crash location mentioned in the service records is correct. we just want to check out if there is more info on how 132 wing got the info that Decroix was taken prisoner.

so the main question is now,i need to find some writing in the 132wing or squadrons assigned concering Decroix.

but many thanks for your info.

 

hi, this part i know, i also now know that the crash location of Goldsmit was in fact at Amstelwijck close to Dordrecht. I just need to check out a letter from the resistance about this. The letter resides in the archives of Dordrecth. one other thing is that we have a gap in where he was firstly buried, we assume he was first buried next or close to his plane, as he was moved to the main cemetary in Dordrecht in july 1945.

on Decroix, we 'think' that the crash location mentioned in the service records is correct. we just want to check out if there is more info on how 132 wing got the info that Decroix was taken prisoner.

so the main question is now,i need to find some writing in the 132wing or squadrons assigned concering Decroix.

but many thanks for your info.

The Commonwealth War Graves commission probably have the information where Goldsmit was first buried. Don't bother asking them, as they refuse to give out this information. Several members have made enquiries over time, myself included and they treat it as confidential, even to relatives.

I would think the Red Cross would have passed information regarding the POW status of Decroix to the British authorities, having received it from the Germans. There might also be reference to his capture later on in the war diary of 349 Sqdn. I've seen this sort of information recorded, but you might have to look well past his date of going missing.

 

hi, this part i know, i also now know that the crash location of Goldsmit was in fact at Amstelwijck close to Dordrecht. I just need to check out a letter from the resistance about this. The letter resides in the archives of Dordrecth. one other thing is that we have a gap in where he was firstly buried, we assume he was first buried next or close to his plane, as he was moved to the main cemetary in Dordrecht in july 1945.

on Decroix, we 'think' that the crash location mentioned in the service records is correct. we just want to check out if there is more info on how 132 wing got the info that Decroix was taken prisoner.

so the main question is now,i need to find some writing in the 132wing or squadrons assigned concering Decroix.

but many thanks for your info.

Met Peter today at Kew and we had an unsuccessful moring trying to locate additional information on Decroix. However, I later found a completed returning POW form, in which Decroix states he was captured near Dordrecht which puts him North of the Holland Diep and not near Willemstad, South of the Hollands Diep, Map Ref QD.7358.

 

Hi Rob,

was great to meet you in at NA, very gratefull for showing me the ropes over there!
thats a great find! did you make a picture of the whole record? i would sure like to see the whole filled in document.

for the info you gave, it is still an issue, as he states in his diary that i got, he was captured by the Germans and put in 2 farms, and then on the night of the 4th of November moved across the water over the "moerdijk" bridge. so i'm not sure where that new location comes from. more mysteries to solve!

but if you can send me all the pictures of that document, that would be great, then i can send that through to his Son in law.

thx!
Peter

 

Hi Peter,

I did copy the other 2 pages on which he wrote, but there is nothing of use on them. I will send them to you tomorrow.

Good to meet you too. I will pursue the matter of trying to find a war diary reference for 132 Wing.

Regards - Rob

 

I would like to know if the WD goes back to the 14 October 1944? If it does does it mention the death of Pte Hugh GILMOUR 4202384 ? And so can you provide me with any further information on this soldier, or the actions that the Regt was involved with that day. thanks.

 

Pages of the War Diary for October 1944 describing what the 4th Lincolns were doing. They were in the area of Baarle-Nassau in the Netherlands. It does not mention other ranks by name on that date. One wounded one missing.