42445 John Patrick BOWES-LYON, 2 Scots Guards

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by Mr Jinks, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Casualty
    Lieutenant BOWES-LYON, THE HON. JOHN PATRICK
    Service Number 42445
    Died Between 18/09/1941 and 19/09/1941
    Aged 31
    2nd Bn. Scots Guards
    Master of Glamis. Son of Patrick Bowes-Lyon, 15th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, and of Lady Dorothy Beatrice Godolphin Osborne, of Glamis Castle, Angus. Cousin of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.
    INSCRIPTION: REQUIESCAT IN PACE
    Buried at HALFAYA SOLLUM WAR CEMETERY
    Location: Egypt
    Number of casualties: 1812
    Cemetery/memorial reference: 1. F. 2.
    See cemetery plan

    Kyle
     

    Attached Files:

    Mr Jinks, Dec 29, 2012
    #1
  2. ncayote

    ncayote Member

    Royal link with SS Empire Pride

    Hi all,

    I quote from my grandfathers diary'

    (1941) 'During this time I spent a spell guarding the empire pride with anti aircraft and machine guns. during the night the crew woke everyone up as a knocking sound was heard people searched the ship and it was thought the enemy was sneaking around. In the morning it was told a young lieutenant had jumped over the side of the ship and hung himself with his body hitting the ship (hence the knocking sound). I found from talking to others that this man had had a bet on the boat with others and there had been some drinking involved too. People in smart suits came along in a nice car to collect the body and take it away it was later found out it was John Patrick Bowes-Lyon born on 1st January 1910 he was queen mothers nephew.

    Done some research and have found the man in question but his death recorded on 19th sept 1940 in halfaya pass? any thoughts anyone
     
    ncayote, Feb 27, 2013
    #2
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Page 85 of The Scots Guards, 1919 -1955 states that Hon. JP Bowes Lyon "was killed while charging an enemy sangar with grenades on patrol."
     
    dbf, Feb 27, 2013
    #3
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    A copy used to hang in one of the offices of 2nd Bn Scots Guards cannot remember which office:



    mw114726.jpg
     
    Wills, Feb 27, 2013
    #4
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  5. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member


    View attachment 100763

    If this is the person in question....ahem...he looks kinda gay.
    I can't explain how, but it crossed my mind...
    Suicide by hanging may then sound ' logic' (for that time, many 'discovered' homo's did choose suicide as a way ' out' ).

    And the consequent cover up , it all makes sense.
    And what better way to dismember a neckstrung corpse than to blast it into pieces , socalled "while charging an enemy sangar with grenades".


    It's guessing, but I 'm always in for some conspiracy theory when it 's core truth is clumsiness. :)
     
    arnhem44, Feb 27, 2013
    #5
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    What a trollish post.

    This conspiracy theory of yours is based on what exactly?
     
    dbf, Feb 27, 2013
    #6
  7. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    The mystery appears to be that anything crossed your mind!
     
    Wills, Feb 27, 2013
    #7
    dbf likes this.
  8. ncayote

    ncayote Member

    intresting information my research had discovered a 1940 death date which didn't go in with my diary entry but that now seems to correspond thanks dbf
     
    ncayote, Feb 27, 2013
    #8
  9. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    Wishful thinking for a new movie/book:)
    But the story of the original poster is biggest basis really, and what I said already (and his presumed important high profile family).


    Just to remember how the times were for homosexuals:

    Alan Turing's homosexuality resulted in a criminal prosecution in 1952, when homosexual acts were still illegal in the United Kingdom. He accepted treatment with female hormones (chemical castration) as an alternative to prison. Turing died in 1954, just over two weeks before his 42nd birthday, from cyanide poisoning. An inquest determined that his death was suicide; his mother and some others believed his death was accidental
     
    arnhem44, Mar 15, 2013
    #9
  10. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    No, apparently based on your opinion of a photo.

     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
    dbf, Mar 15, 2013
    #10
  11. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Arnhem, not terribly surprised to read a baited, rather ill informed post.

    Opinions of photos hardly stand as decent evidence to go off. Furthermore citing Turing is a terrible strawman argument in this case. Homosexuality and the army is a colourful topic, (consider the great Micky Burn for example), and the reception Montgomery received in the Commons for announcing not one case of reported buggery in 21AG... hysterical laughter from the back benches.

    There are several personal accounts and other books which touch upon this area.

    From the account "this man had had a bet on the boat with others and there had been some drinking involved too" - it certainly sounds whoever the unfortunate person was suffered death by misadventure.
     
    Swiper, Mar 15, 2013
    #11
  12. Bernard85

    Bernard85 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    good day ncayote,27.feb.2013.11:52pm.re:royal link with ss.empire pride.it looks like a cover up for obvious reasons.it seems to have generated an interesting thread.not the best way for a young man to end his life,all the best,bernard85.
     
    Bernard85, Apr 8, 2013
    #12
  13. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From War Diary, 2SG, 18 & 19 September, 1941:


    18 September
    A mild dust-storm blew during the day.
    During the night 18/19 September the following activities took place:-

    (i ) one Platoon Right Flank relieved Platoon F Company in CHAR Column.
    This Platoon rejoined F Company early on 19th September.

    (ii ) Fighting Patrol under Lieutenant BOWES-LYON went out to secure an identification from the area Point 10 and beyond, if necessary.
    They encountered the enemy at Point 10 and met M.G. fire.
    The enemy also brought down heavy defensive fire from their Artillery.
    The patrol were forced to seek cover in the sea.
    Lieutenant BOWES-LYON and Sergeant WORKMAN did not return with the remainder of the patrol.
    Two Sergeants and two Guardsmen were wounded.

    (iii ) Fighting patrol under Captain GRANT-WATSON went to WADI SHABA to secure an identification.
    They encountered enemy M.G. posts at the foot of the Wadi.
    Grenades were thrown and Lance-Corporal MORRISON attacked one enemy post with a Tommy-gun.
    Several casualties were inflicted on the enemy.
    Captain GRANT-WATSON went to search one enemy dead body and whilst doing so was knocked over by the blast from an enemy shell or mortar bomb.
    The patrol then withdrew.
    Guardsman HEWITT was wounded in the back.

    [hr]

    19 September
    Lieutenant The Honourable J.P. BOWES-LYON and Sergeant WORKMAN reported ‘Missing - Believed Killed’.
    The names of the other men wounded in F Company during the night 18/19 September are:-
    Sergeant TINGLEY
    Lance-Sergeant FAULTS
    Guardsman PEARSON, and
    Guardsman MULLIN

    During the afternoon the enemy batteries shelled the Pl. H.Q. at Point 19.
    The following were killed:-
    Lance-Corporal BRYDEN, and
    Lance-Corporal CRICHTON.
    Guardsman TWEEDIE was severely wounded.

    A Fighting Patrol under 2/Lieutenant BUTTER was sent to WADI SHABA during night 19/20 September but saw no enemy.


    [hr]

    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2115778/
    BOWES-LYON, The Hon. JOHN PATRICK
    Rank: Lieutenant
    Service No: 42445
    Date of Death: Between 18/09/1941 and 19/09/1941
    Age: 31
    Regiment/Service: Scots Guards, 2nd Bn.
    Grave Reference: 1. F. 2.
    Cemetery: HALFAYA SOLLUM WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Master of Glamis. Son of Patrick Bowes-Lyon, 15th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, and of Lady Dorothy Beatrice Godolphin Osborne, of Glamis Castle, Angus. Cousin of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2058394/
    WORKMAN, JAMES
    Rank: Serjeant
    Service No: 2695548
    Date of Death: Between 18/09/1941 and 19/09/1941
    Age: 25
    Regiment/Service: Scots Guards
    Grave Reference: 1. F. 3.
    Cemetery: HALFAYA SOLLUM WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Alexander and Margaret Stevenson Workman, of Glasgow.
     
    dbf, May 27, 2015
    #13
  14. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Regarding post #1 the diary entry obviously has the incorrect LYON. However, I can confirm that a Lt Lyon died on EMPIRE PRIDE.
    In view of the nature of death claimed in the diary I don't think I should post anymore information on who it was.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Hugh MacLean, May 27, 2015
    #14
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  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks Hugh,
    It's an old thread but your reply shows an answer can be found eventually.
     
    dbf, May 27, 2015
    #15
  16. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ron Goldstein, May 27, 2015
    #16

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