3rd indian motorissed brigade

Discussion in 'British Indian Army' started by via fora!, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. via fora!

    via fora! Junior Member

    On the 27th may 1942 the 3rd indian motorissed brigade fought aganist Italian Ariete armoured division and was overrun not after putting out of action around 30 of Ariete's tanks. By the way no german unit was involved.
    Not know how many were captured, but I guess that most of the infantry fighting companies. Many of the AT gunners would have been casualties and also most of the gunners from 2nd Indian field regiment.
    Some of the guns of the 2nd field regiment were able to retreat.
    http://mod.nic.in/samachar/dec15-06/h3.htm

    from different sources I read that about 800 men were able to rejoin the british, POW's were freed because their captors were not able to suply water nor food. But no officers.

    The brigade was reformed someway in june and rejoined the fight albeit in the jock colums way under 7th armoured division. It suffered again many loses during the retreat around the frontier on 23rd june 1942.

    How were the 3rd brigade able to reorganise soo fast?? if it was decimated and very few officers remained, is an intriguing question for me.

    Any information about how it was done?
     
  2. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    This was actually 3 Indian Motor Brigade.
     
  3. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

  4. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    3 Motor never had a chance against the opening probes (the drive on Bir Hacheim) of Operation Venezia, as the infantry and gunners were practically caught in the open by the Italian armor, with only hastily-dug shallow gunpits and flimsy sangars for defense.

    In half an hour it was all over...
     
  5. via fora!

    via fora! Junior Member

    Well, The Brigade was attacked by Ariete tank battalions 8th, 9th, and 10th supported by the Semoventi 75/18's. At 6:40 in the morning the guns of 2nd field regiment indian artillery opened fire.
    At 7:15 the first big tank attack was launched and in about an hour most of the deffending AT guns were destroyed and some of the field guns. Some of the guns were able to retreat and it was not until the italian infantry arrived (quite late) than the men were made prisoners.
    By the way NO german tank was involved in the fighting.
    about 800 men were able to regain allied lines, some 200 being recaptured by british columns and the rest freed because of the lack of water (to Bir Hakeim). The officers though had been sent to the rear.
    The brigade was again, but much reduced, operative in mid june...
    The italians suffered about 30 tanks out of operation although some would be recovered.
    Is said that they had just half the complement of AT guns, and the carrier platoons were not there (just some arrived during the battle to be destroyed). But the most important weapon not present were the AT mines. If they had had mines, they could have sttopped the italian tanks dead...and caused irreparable loses to the Axis army....
     
  6. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Did the Brigade arrive in North Africa during January or February of 1941? I have seen conflicting reports.
     
  7. lostinspace

    lostinspace Junior Member

    According to "The Tiger Kills" (H.M.S.O., 1944, pp. 109-110) the brigade was re-equipped at Mena at the end of Aug. '41 and then ordered to the Deir-ez-Zor district in north-east Syria in early September. They were then sent back to the desert in early Feb., '42; where they "received anti-tank guns and Bren carriers. The next three months were spent in intensive training in the desert and during this period the 2nd Field Regiment of Indian Artillery arrived." On 22 May the brigade was ordered to point 171, about two miles south-east of the French box at Bir Hakeim, the history records: "The total number of guns available for the Brigade was 24 field guns (25-pounders), thirty anti-tank guns (2-pounders) and 6 Bofors anti-aircraft guns." the A/A guns were a recently arrived British troop.
    Let me know if you want any other info out of the history.

    Dave
     
  8. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Hi. I was actually looking for their arrival in North Africa the year before, but thanks that was interesting.
     
  9. lostinspace

    lostinspace Junior Member

    Sorry, sometimes I look but don't see. I'll check the book again, hopefully it will show when they first arrived.
    edit: Unfortunately "The Tiger Kills" begins the narrative in June '41; the info you want might be in "The Tiger Strikes" which I don't have. I'll look through some other books and see if I can come up with anything.

    Dave
     
  10. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    3rd Indian Motor Brigade - Raised at Sialkot on 1 July 1940 from HQ Sialkot Brigade Area. The brigade was broken up during the first week of July 1942, but reformed at the end of August 1942. It was retitled 43rd Indian Infantry Brigade on 26 February 1943.

    2nd Royal Lancers 1/7/40 - 5/1/43
    11th PAVO Cavalry 1/7/40 - 1/43
    18th Cavalry 10/40 - 1/43 - designated from 7/40
    5/13th Frontier Force Rifles 30/11/41 - 2/42 - support battalion
    2/6th Gurkha Rifles 7/2/43 - 26/2/43
    2/8th Gurkha Rifles 16/1/43 - 26/2/43
    2/10th Gurkha Rifles 7/1/43 - 26/2/43

    13th Lancers 6/42 - 7/42 - attached
    2nd Field Regiment, IA 4/42 - 1/43 - attached

    Location Statement
    India 1/7/40 - 26/1/41
    At sea 26/1/41 - 6/2/41
    Egypt 6/2/41 - 9/3/41
    Western Desert 9/3/41 - 8/4/41
    Egypt 8/4/41 - 9/41
    Syria 9/41 - 2/42
    Egypt 2/42 - 11/5/42
    Western Desert 11/5/42 - 27/6/42
    Egypt 27/6/42 - 7/7/42
    Broken up 7/7/42 - 8/42
    Persia 8/42 - 26/2/43
     
  11. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here are some facts about the 2nd Royal Lancers during the reform period:

    It returned to the Western Desert on May 11th, 1942 and arrived at Mersa Matruh on May 12th. It moved to the Bir Hacheim area and was attacked at Point 171 on May 27th by the 15th and the 21st Panzer Divisions. It was in an action at Got el Haman and the brigade was virtually destroyed by June 4th. The Lancers reformed at Buq Buq on May 29th with ‘A’ Squadron (8 6-lb anti-tank guns), ‘B’ Squadron (2 Bren carrier troops) and ‘C’ Squadron (3 motor troops). After reorganization, the brigade moved to Halfaya Pass on June 15th and the regiment held the northern pass in the Sollum area.
     
  12. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    The same for the 11th Cavalry and 18th Cavalry:

    It returned to the Western Desert on May 11th, 1942 and arrived at Mersa Matruh on May 12th. The brigade was then ordered to Point 171 (Bir Hacheim) and was overrun there on May 27th, 1942. The brigade was virtually destroyed by June 4th. It then withdrew to Buq Buq, where it was reformed. It then was ordered to Halfaya Pass on June 15th to hold the passes in the Sollum area.
     
  13. lostinspace

    lostinspace Junior Member

    Finally found something that confirms the arrival date of 3rd Motor Bde. as 6 Feb. 1941 (the same date the Wiki article shows). I see you have been on some other forums asking the same question without getting a definite answer so maybe this will help as it has details on a specific officer in Gardner's Horse who commanded their advance party: http://www.omsa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=404

    Dave
     
  14. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thank you both, that is great!
     
  15. lostinspace

    lostinspace Junior Member

    I wonder if the following would have been the commanding officers for the three regiments (as of April '41)?

    2 R. Lancers (Gardner's) - Lt. Col. R.A. de Salis
    11 P.A.V.O. Cav. - Lt. Col. C.P. Bayer
    18 King Edward VII's Own Cav. - Lt. Col. H.O.W. Fowler

    According to the article I referenced above the first two might be correct but I'm not sure about Fowler, plus they were probably all substantive Majors (or even Captains) and temporary Lt. Cols.

    Dave
     

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