3rd Battalion IRISH GUARDS

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by dbf, Mar 25, 2008.

  1. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    He D, good work again, don't forget to take care of the family,hahaha
     
  2. Kennedi

    Kennedi Junior Member

    Hi D yes they are my grandfathers medals, they were given to my grandmother after his death i think. Thanks for everything that you have done for Kennedi
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Kennedi,

    Thanks for letting me know about the medals, it may help a little.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=38&pictureid=369
    In this case then you can read your photo going by the ribbons from left to right as 1939-45 Star, Defence Medal, War Medal, France & Germany Star. However, I can’t quite see for sure (lost my glasses ) but I think the ribbons for the 2 medals in the middle have been swapped over. See here
    http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/defence_reverse.JPG

    If these are all the medals to which Sidney was entitled, and I note in particular that the Defence Medal is there, then I can make a guess about his service and say that he did not serve with the 1st Battalion in either North Africa or Italy. It would be best though to check with the MOD to see what he actually did qualify for as WW2 medals were not sent out automatically.

    Best wishes,
    D

    1939-45 Star
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/19391945Star.htm
    Campaign : All overseas campaigns
    Dates (Europe) : 3 Sep 1939 - 8 May 1945
    (Far East) : 3 Sep 1939 - 2 Sep 1945
    The 1939–45 Star was awarded for any period of operational service overseas between 3 Sep 1939 and 8 May 1945 (2 Sep 1945 in the Far East).

    Defence Medal
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/DefenceMedal.htm
    Campaign : World War II
    Dates (Europe) : 3 Sep 1939 - 8 May 1945
    (Overseas) : 3 Sep 1939 - 2 Sep 1945
    Area / Time required
    UK / 1080 days
    Overseas non-operational / 360 days
    Overseas non-operational in an area deemed to be closely threatened or subject to air attack / 180 days

    War Medal
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/WarMedal.htm
    Campaign : World War II
    Dates : 3 Sep 1939 - 2 Sep 1945
    The War Medal was awarded to all fulltime personnel of the armed forces wherever they were serving, provided they had served for at least 28 days between 3 September 1939 and 2 September 1945.

    France & Germany Star
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/FranceAndGermanyStar.htm
    Campaign : Northwest Europe
    Dates : 6 Jun 1944 - 8 May 1945
    Location : France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Germany
    Star awarded for 1 or more days’ service in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands or Germany between above dates

    Africa Star
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/AfricaStar.htm
    Campaign : North Africa
    Dates : 10 Jun 1940 - 12 May 1943
    Location : North and North-East Africa
    Star awarded for 1 or more days’ service in North Africa, Malta or Egypt between the above dates.

    Italy Star
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/ItalyStar.htm
    Campaign : Sicily and Italy
    Dates (Sicily) : 10 Jul 1943 - 17 Aug 1943
    (Italy) : 3 Sep 1943 - 8 May 1945
    Location : Sicily and Italy
    Star awarded for 1 or more days’ service in Sicily or Italy between the above dates relevant to each campaign.
     
  4. Kennedi

    Kennedi Junior Member

    Diane yr amazing my granddad came and looked today as well. I couldnt tell if any of the men in the photo was my greatgrandad but im hoping my grandad will tell me:)
     
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi,
    That is fantastic news, I hope it comes to something ... this is all your initiative remember; keep up the good work researching the family. I am sure they are all proud of your efforts.

    D
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I'd guess that Gt-Grandad may well have been in the 1st Bn but was posted to 3rd Bn when it was formed.
    We've established in Kennedi's album that one picture of him was taken in 1943 when 3IG were part of 33 Gds Bde.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=38&pictureid=360

    See comments below the picture.
     
  7. Kennedi

    Kennedi Junior Member

    Going from granddads medals Diane thinks that he probably wasnt in the 1st battn...i just wish i could see him in photos that we hadnt already got . My grandad would love that :)
     
  8. Kennedi

    Kennedi Junior Member

    Gt Grandad was killed on a bren gun carrier when he got killed.
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Kennedi,

    Just to clarify what Owen and I have been talking about in 2 different ways.
    Your great grandfather probably was in the 1st battalion, probably not with them in North Africa or in Italy as he is in a photo which shows him being in a different Guards brigade and because he doesn‘t have these campaign medals.

    What is likely is that as he has a Defence Medal, he was in different duties in Britain with the 1st Battalion and then at some stage, probably when the 3rd Battalion was officially formed in 1943 he was transferred to that battalion. I know for instance that instructors ended up in the 3rd Battalion. If you think about it, they needed men who were experienced and had been in the Guards for a longer time as well as new recruits.

    The 3rd was originally known as the Training Battalion and used to bring up recruits to standard ready to reinforce the 1st and 2nd Battalions. It was not meant to be sent out to campaigns as a battalion in itself. The 1st Battalion suffered many losses in Italy, men were killed, injured or taken prisoner, and the order was given to go ahead and form the 3rd Battalion from the Training Battalion to prepare for the invasion of France. So it seems that this was probably when your Great grandfather ended up with them. They still needed more men for even by the end of June 1944 when they reached France a couple of weeks after D-Day, they were still not up to full strength. Only 3 Companys were available when 4 was required. So they ‘borrowed’ a Company from the Scots Guards up until the end of August 1944.

    By the way, if Sidney was with the Carrier platoon in 3rd Battalion then, he would have sailed on the Liberty ship “Samphill” with the tanks of the 2nd Armoured Battalion. While they were embarking they witnessed the first V1 rockets, doodlebugs, coming over the Channel before bombing London. The sad news was received before they sailed that The Guards Chapel had been hit. Over 100 people were killed when attending a service, but it was not reported in the news as this would have been bad for morale. Sailing was delayed by a terrible storm and the Mulberry harbour at Arromanches where they were to land, was damaged in it. Eventually the carrier platoon would have reached Bayeux on 25/26 June. They took part in Operation Goodwood before Operation Market Garden and then the push into Germany the following year when Sidney was killed.

    My father was a Bren Gunner in the 3rd Battalion and his friend from his training squad ended up in the Carrier Platoon. I don’t see Dad's friend in the photo either, but his squad photo is on this thread. He died on 21st September bringing up ammunition to the infantry and tanks fighting at the front. This was one of the roles they carried out and obviously was a dangerous one. To give you an illustration of how many men were injured or killed, a section should have had 10 men. By the time my Dad was in Holland, he and his best mate were all that was left of the original section that landed in Arromanches.

    I am sorry a lot of this is guess work, as really the best place to find out the most about Sidney is from his service records, which would show when he enlisted where he trained and served and when he was transferred. His story would be an interesting one indeed if you had all this information and could pin point dates.

    Diane
     
  10. Kennedi

    Kennedi Junior Member

    I am going to ask my granddad later today if he has the service records im sure he does. There was something he couldnt get but im not sure what they was because when he went to get the information the pages was missing relating to my gt granddad. I understand a bit better now thank you for explaining. Mom is getting his death cerf from kew on monday and she is going to see what else she can get for me. My project is comin on so well i have lots of pictures war diaries pictures details of around the time he died and its all down to you guys i cant thank you all enough.
    :):):)
     
  11. Kennedi

    Kennedi Junior Member

    A massive ty to Diane and owen and Paul for all your help regarding information on my gt grandfather and the time around his death. I have FINISHED my project yay:) 27 pages lol

    I really cant thankyou all enough i will be bk to let you no how i get on with results.
    Im eleven but i have really enjoyed researching the war and my gt grandfather and you guys made it easier for me to understand.

    Kenziie see u all soon xxx
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi
    Sounds like a lot of hard work there. Sure you will do well, don't forget to let us all know. Keep up the good work :D

    d
     
  13. jake1047

    jake1047 Junior Member

    Great project! See here, might help

    http://www.********.co.uk/WW2/

    geoff
    I have a document from my late father which shows he was in the same platoon as Lt. O'Grady and Corporal Veale.
    I would be grateful if you could forward me the details for their citations
    I also have details of all POW, injured and killed from the platoon
    Thanks Mike
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I have a document from my late father which shows he was in the same platoon as Lt. O'Grady and Corporal Veale.
    I would be grateful if you could forward me the details for their citations
    I also have details of all POW, injured and killed from the platoon
    Thanks Mike


    Hi Mike,
    Welcome to the forum.

    [Am just about to go out.]

    Will get back to you soon about the MC & MM recommendations, which were both awarded for the same action on 4 March 1945.
    Would your father have served also with Emmerson and Forshaw?

    Regards,
    Diane
     
  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Mike,
    Noticed you haven't been back to the forum since you posted ... the MC & MM recommendation details are sitting in your personal message folder.
    Regards,
    D
     
  16. TomTAS

    TomTAS Very Senior Member

    Hi D

    Bloody hell do you get any time in the day with that lot, still well done looks great lots of hours on your pc. btw any Airborne in Ireland you can get for me.

    Cheers
    Tom
     
  17. markinbelfast

    markinbelfast Senior Member

    Does anyone have anything on 185 O'SHEA, FRANCIS PATRICK F P GUARDSMAN 3RD BN. 2718584 23.05.1946 BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY...was his death natural causes or because of wounds.I noticed that he isnt on the roll of honour website.
     
  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Mark,

    Would that be the Army Roll of Honour?

    Unfortunately the IG History RoH does not give details of KIA DOW etc.

    I would take a guess and say DOW for it states 3Bn in his details.

    Sorry but I have no further information about Gdsm O'Shea.
    Regards,
    D
     
  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  20. markinbelfast

    markinbelfast Senior Member

    dbf likes this.

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