3055491 James P A THOMSON, 2 QOCH & HLI: Matching certificates to soldier records

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to get information on my grandfather's upto's during ww2. We know his regiment, service number, pow number however we have come a bit unstuck because my grandfather lied about his age to join... not once but apparently twice. We had always known he lied about his age and come unstuck at some point. However tna holds 2 records for him, 1 under each phony dob, 1 is an open record and the other is closed unless we can provide the death cert, obviously we can but it won't match the year of his birth on the record they have.

Does anyone have any experience of mismathcing evidence? I'm not even sure if this is actually a non-issue? And also if someone can point me in the right direction of acquiring his service record I would appreciate it. All I can seem tofind on tna is his pow records but in all honesty I'm not really sure what I am doing!

Tia

 

Kay,

It always helps to provide his NAME and his Service Number: His DoB and DoD . A pre-war address can sometimes help identify the subject from genealogy sites for example. Their parents details and any marriage – as some certificates show the subject’s service number. A marriage cert. can be ordered online from https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

We always recommend applying for the subject's full service record. Yes, it may take a year to arrive - either from the MoD or National Archives (TNA). It is not available online and is the definitive record. There is nothing you can do about the wait.

If you search online with his unit(s) if known, so for example: "XXth Anti-Tank Regiment" site:ww2talk.com that may identify threads mentioning them, at a glance without adding much. If you drop the 'th' more may be found.

Searching the National Archives for the subject or unit(s) can identify those who were awarded honours / medals and the existence of War Diaries – which rarely mention individuals soldiers. They do give context and details of activity.

Some research tips next via PM and good luck.

Regarding the mismatching DoB x2 I expect others have encountered this, whether with the MoD and now the TNA. (Standby looking)

In 2021 there was a post:

From: Service Number ?

In 2024:

Note the thread refers to RAF records: RAF 1943 Medical Examination results

 

Sorry I can't find out how to edit the original post.


Service No. 3055491 James Thomson (Most returns are under J P A Thomson, Pte and LCpl) actual dob: 4/11/1920 alt dobs: 4/11/1916 and 4/11/1918 his birth place is Rawalpindi
2nd Battalion QOCH until '48 then HLI until '49
Enlisted: December 1937, Discharged: December 1949
Captured at Tobruk in 1942 either June 19th or 21st (unsure what company)

 

Kay,

You can edit your posts and the thread title - the later can help get attention - bottom left of the post is 'Edit'. Click on and go.

Neither his name or number have appeared here before.

The original 2nd battalion was lost at Tobruk June 1942. From Wiki:

From: Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders - Wikipedia

So far unable to find more here about their capture. I searched online with: "tobruk" + "Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders" site:ww2talk.com

See for details: https://www.thehighlandersmuseum.com/?p=31247

For more see Post 4 in: 2928145 Sgt. George PIERCY 2nd batt. Cameron Highlanders Note this Sgt went to an Italian POW Camp 53 or PG53 or PG 53, at Macerata. That does not mean your subject went there too.

See Post 1 for a list of Italian camps, their full name and TNA records: Italian Prisoner of War Camps - matching names and numbers

Others here focus on Italian POW Camps, hopefully they will be along.

File WO 361/1000 lists the Camerons missing after Tobruk. They were then part of the 11th Indian Infantry Brigade.

In brief: In September 1943 the Italians gave up, but the Germans moved swiftly to remove POWs to German-held places, e.g. Poland.

 

Thank you so much! I really appreciate those links, I will have a good dig. I have a few camp numbers to check out that he's logged in on some casualty/missing/pow lists I managed to find on find my past. I also found that he was part of the 11th Indian infantry division while in the 2nd and at Tobruk, but I hadn't thought to dig into that. I don't think he saw action anywhere other than Africa because afaik he only has the Africa star for campaign medals but again I'm just not sure so I think I will also check where the 2nd were before then, maybe that can shed some light.

I'm hoping someone will be able to come along and say if the dob will be a problem when asking for closed records or not! I'm going to apply for his marriage certificate and hope that his service number is on there because I know he used his real dob to get married. If his record wasn't closed it wouldn't be such a pain!

Greatest of thanks to the kind soul that edited my post!

 

Kay,

It was the 11th Indian Brigade (not Division). An outline from Wiki:

2 QOCH was with them:

From: 11th Indian Infantry Brigade - Wikipedia

They fought the Italians in East Africa, invading Eritrea and Abbysinia (now Ethiopia) till March 19141, when most Italians surrendered. In particular the QOCH fought at the battle of Keren. Then back to the Western Desert and finally into Tobruk where the brigade surrendered. See: 4th Infantry Division (India) - Wikipedia

 

Sorry, that's my fault, I meant brigade. Thank you for keeping me straight!

 

Hello Kay.

A clarification first up. Re your words above; "However tna holds 2 records for him". TNA Kew hold one service record, and one POW card (see screenshot below, the first item will be your grandfather's army service record. The second item is the POW card).



Here's the link that will take you to the above on TNA website.

Search results: 3055491 | The National Archives

When (if you choose to, if you want to) you apply for your grandfather's army service record (TNA reference WO 423/506493) the online application (started by clicking on the "request a search of closed records" button (see righthand side of screenshot below):



will open up another "page" where you enter your grandfather's details, and this "page" contains (as you scroll down) an "Additional Information (optional)" box, where you can type in something along the lines of "My grandfather lied about his age to enable him to join up when he did, hence the differing birth date(s) on his copy death certificate (as attached) and his army record that you hold".

The National Archives should then release it to you in some shape or form (likely with medical or any disciplinary references redacted). Note that it is unlikely to be a quick process unfortunately.

As for the second item that TNA hold (the POW card), as it is already an "open" item you might like to request a copy of it (at some cost) as there should be a photograph of your grandfather with it. This would likely have been taken on his arrival at Stalag IVB (Muhlberg), which at that time was still being used as a "transit" camp before most prisoners (again, at that time) were sent on to other camps, which in your grandfather's case was Stalag VIII-B (later re-numbered 344) at Lamsdorf (note that after initially being captured in North Africa your grandfather was incarcerated in Camp PG 78 near Sulmona in Italy, before later being transferred to Germany).

There's a good read to be had about PG 78 (courtesy of forum member Coops_0031) here:

PG78 Sulmona, Report

Good luck in pursuit of your grandfather's war (and records!) Kay. Whatever you decide to do, please, if you wish to, let us know how you get on.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

One final thing for tonight Kay, your grandfather's army number, 3055491, which would have been initially assigned to him when he first joined up, is a Royal Scots number.

His service record will (should!) reveal dates of transfer between regiments.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

In your application, you could also supply all possible Next of Kin (eg parents, wife) details & contemporary addresses as a cross reference for them to check, should they need that. From personal experience, I know how tricky it can be to identify service records for relative who twice lied about their DOB but in your case you do at least have his Army Number, fortunately the same for both TNA files and his name isn't terribly common either. You should have much better luck!

(The difference in YOB between the POW entry and the Service record entry could just as easily be a simple typo in the cataloguing. Just pointing this out, as I don't know the circumstances but those POW records in particular seem to be prone to transcription errors.)

 

Hello Kay.

There are a couple of drawings along with a little text that you may like to see regarding PG 78 Sulmona within the post here:

Chieti PG 21

Always remember, never forget,

Jim.

 

This is excellent, thank you. I thought both were PoW records so it is good to know that they do have his service record. Do you know if they were to redact his medical/disciplinary references if there would be anyway to obtain those in the future? We know from the casualty lists that he was a LCpl when he was captured, but when he was discharged in 1949 (with an exemplary conduct) he is a Pte again! Which as you can probably imagine is highly intriguing

Thank you for your help! It is much appreciated, I am hoping to share as much of his story as I can when we get hold of his records.

 

I did wonder if the second dob was likely to be an error, as it wouldn't make sense for him not to use his real year (1920) as he was 22 when he was captured and would have been old enough at that point, I can't be certain but I highly doubt they were kicking fit men off the line once they found out they had stretched their ages slightly!

 

Hello Kay,

When you apply, within the "Additional Information (optional)" box you could add something along the lines of "Full disclosure of all records that you hold please".

It would likely be ignored, but you never know until you receive what you receive!

Good luck with all, stick with it, you'll get there.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

This is really interesting. I have his Record of Service card and release papers. The record of service is Army Form W5258, theres no sign of Royal Scots on there and no gap in his service either. He was QOCH 6/12/37 to 9/8/48 and HLI 10/8/48 to 5/12/49 with the first and last being the enlistment/discharge dates on his release papers.

 

I guess I should take an "If you don't ask you won't get" approach! Thank you

 

Hi,

The record of service form may only record his Regular Army service.

Like a lot of young men in between the wars perhaps he joined his local TA unit to “dip his toe” in to Army life and subsequently enlisted in to the Regular Army.

Steve

 

We know he was definitely in the TA after the war, not sure about before though

 

Hi Steve,

Would you happen to know if this is a Royal Scots uniform? I can't work out exactly what it says on the drum but it appears to say "...Royal Scots Queens..."

I discovered that the Royal Scots 4th/5th Queens Edinburgh Rifles were TA units pre-ww2 so the timing and location would fit.

It would also explain why he added 4 years to his age if he actually enlisted to the TA at 16 and not just adding 3 years when enlisting in the regs at 17!

So now I have to find out how to search for TA records too because I think he has a different service number for the TA after he left the regular army in 49!

Thanks again,
Kay

 

Sorry but the image is too blurred to pass an opinion.

His post WW2 TA service record ought to be held together with his Regular Army Service papers and any pre war TA service papers (likely to be very brief). I was provided with my fathers pre war TA service papers when I applied for his army service record. To be safe I’d put some text on the application form to the effect that you know he had post war TA service from 1949 but that you don’t know his service number and request those papers are provided.

Steve