3 RTR Regiment size? Lists?

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Crock, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. Crock

    Crock Active Member

    Morning all,

    A couple of questions if i may and apologies if its been asked but ive looked and cant find it, the 3rd RTR correct me if im wrong went through the war with 4 squadrons, HQ,A,B and C, How many men and tanks would usually make up a squadron in the 3rd?

    Ive just started reading Bill Close A view from a turret, a line in the opening few pages got me thinking, he says not many in the 3rd served / survived through from Calais to the end of the war as he did, i know that my grandad did but was wondering if any lists are in existence of the 3rd going into Calais and another at the wars end to cross reference and see how many actually did go all the way?

    Keith
     
  2. Wessex_Warrior

    Wessex_Warrior Junior Member

    Hello Keith,

    The 3rd Tank Battalion landed in France with 21 Mark VIB Light Tanks and 27 Cruisers (both the A9 and A13 variants) 48 tanks total.
    I know B Squadron was equipped with the Light Tanks.
    The organisation at the time for a tank battalion was 4 squadrons as you say HQ, A, B and C.
    A fighting Squadron (A, B and C) should have 14 tanks 4 troops of 3 tanks (12) plus two at Squadron HQ. This is 52 tanks.
    In the book "Panzer Bait" by William Moore it was recognised that the Battalion was short of 3 tanks when it landed in France. I may suggest it was short of 4 ;-)
    The HQ Squadron had mainly armoured cars such as Daimler Dingos for Reconnaisance and liaison duties.

    All this kit of course never made it back from France.
    Over the course of the War the organisation would change as new tanks and tactics evolved.

    I have never seen any nominal rolls for the 3rd but no doubt they exist somewhere either in Kew of the Tank Museum.

    All the best,

    Will.
     
  3. Wessex_Warrior

    Wessex_Warrior Junior Member

    Hello Keith,

    Sorry Keith that was completely wrong and my maths should be better than that. The A9 was a Close Support tank and these Battalions had a different ORBAT.
    The total tank numbers should be 52 organised as follows :

    Battalion\Regiment HQ had 4 tanks

    Each Squadron (A,B and C) had 4 tanks at Sqn HQ two of which were A9 Close Support tanks with 3.7 inch guns

    Each Squadron also had 4 troops of 3 tanks (12)

    The Battalion in Calais only had 48 tanks as mentioned previously.

    Regards,

    Will.
     
  4. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Nominal Rolls are almost nonexistent. The closest you get are mentions of officers coming and going in the War Diary. Good practical reasons for this (nonexistence) because the War establishment is changing all the time and so would have been an unnecessary administrative nightmare - having said that, the exception proves the rule and I've got a copy of the full Nominal Roll for the 24th Lancers effective roughly D Day. Rolls were maintained at Troop level by the Troop Sergeants 'Troop Roll Book' which included - or, more accurately, was supposed to include - details of all the men and also a schedule of 'Vehicles on Charge'. Again I'm fortunate in having scans of just one such Troop Roll Book which has all the details completed (including my fathers details!) and have seen others which, in their case, were far from complete.

    I don't want to put you off - I prefer a 'glass is half full' mentality rather than 'the glass is half empty' - but am simply saying that the information might be out there but goodness knows where.....
     
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  5. Crock

    Crock Active Member

    Thanks for the info Will :)
     
  6. Crock

    Crock Active Member

    Lol Steve wasn’t expecting it to land in my lap but always happy to be surprised :p

    Just my mind being over active while reading Bill Close’s book... its gonna take longer to read than I thought! Every few pages I’m ‘ wait! I’ve seen that name somewhere?! ‘ and then I’m back in my notes and paperwork.. an hour later it’s ‘ right what was I doing? Oh yea the book! ‘ lol
     
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  7. jetson

    jetson Junior Member

    "Bill" Close, always Bertie at home, was my dad's cousin and one heck of a soldier having read "A view from the Turret!" After the war, he was granted a regular commission in the REME and retired as a Major. I am proud to have been distantly related to him.
     
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  8. GraemeRowland

    GraemeRowland Member

    Hi Jetson, I am looking for any information and photos that are available on my uncle, 3768768 Sgt Dennis Henry Rowland MM 3 RTR, KIA 7 APR 43 at the battle of Wadi Akarit and I read Bill Close's book in the hope that he was mentioned there. Bill must have known him as indeed Bob Crisp would also have known him but he is not mentioned in Brazen Chariots. Sgt Bill Jordan certainly knew him and sent a letter to the Tank Museum recounting a story about him which appears at page 151 in Patrick Delaforces's book about 3 RTR.

    I am determined to track him down! Do you please have any information or photos from Bill?

    Best wishes and stay safe

    Graeme
     
  9. jetson

    jetson Junior Member

    A couple of years late but I have only just read your post. Sadly no photos or real info to give you. I only met Bertie when he, by coincidence, many years ago was visiting my grandma (his aunt) in Uppingham at the same time as my dad (his cousin) and self. The last time I nearly met him was some years ago now when visiting my sole remaining uncle (dad's younger brother) who exclaimed on my entering "You've just missed Bertie Close!" Regrettably they are now all deceased; that generation is fast disappearing. As an aside back in the sixties I worked on the drawing board next to a chap who had held a National Service Commission in REME and comparing notes, he told me he served as a 2 Lt under Bertie at Arborfield depot. Asking him what he thought of him, the reply was "Too nice a chap, more like a schoolmaster, the blokes tried to run rings around him!" Maybe his post WW2 service was more of a rest cure than his wartime days.
     
  10. GraemeRowland

    GraemeRowland Member

    Hi Jetson, Thanks for your reply. You are right, finding any alive of that generation is no longer possible. I have read an immense amount about my uncle's times and my book on his times is nearing completion. There is even a chance I might be in Tunisia this December to go to where he was killed. Who knows what, if anything, I will find there! 3 RTR lost four that day and I suspect they were all in the same tank; Sgt Dennis commanding, Cpl Francis Mott operater/loader, Tprs Sidney Barratt and Frank Fudgell being driver and gunner - there are no known graves for them all. The Brigade was trying to get around the German gun and tank screen which was covering their withdrawal and 3 RTR was left and making progress. The German had some 26 tanks in their screen of which 8 were newly arrived Tigers. If you come across anything, please do not hesitate to contact me. It is amazing what is still out there. An example, the daughter of my uncle James is currently moving house and has come across her father's diaries and various papers which I shall be going to see when I can next get to Scotland. Thanks again, Graeme
     
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  11. jetson

    jetson Junior Member

    So many questions Graeme that I wish now I had asked my dad; a very reticent man and I only learned of his wartime experiences listing in to conversations with his ex service brothers. Dad was at Dunkirk with the Worcestershire Regiment, his youngest brother was picking blokes up in his RN Minesweeper and just down the road at Calais was Bertie Close with 3 RTR and then a young WO2 who, good for him, was evacuated from there after, according to his book, trying to get through to Dunkirk..
     
  12. GraemeRowland

    GraemeRowland Member

    Thanks Jetson, There are also so many questions I should have asked too of my dad and indeed of Peter Vaux who kindly invited me to dinner years ago. It was Peter Vaux who put me forward to go to RMAS in 1961. Turning to the question of of establishments, the best I have come up with is 2/Lt Ronald Grantham MC, 7 Bn RTR, who gives the I Battalion establishment as the following:

    I Tanks 50, Lt Tanks 7 and Personnel carriers 8 with 5 troops per squadron each of 3 tanks. Soft skins: Staff cars 4, 3 ton trucks 24, 30 cwt 7, 15 cwt 11, 8 cwt 86 and M/cs 38. His notes have a lot of detail and the personnal side is not so easy to give figures for. I am happy to try and answer any questions.

    Incidently, when the 7th Battalion RTR went to France in May 1940 they were organised as HQ, A, B and D companies.
     

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