3/2 Gurkhas in the Arakan.

Discussion in 'British Indian Army' started by bamboo43, Jan 21, 2011.

  1. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    Last two:rolleyes:
     

    Attached Files:

    sol likes this.
  2. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    Special day for me today in that I've actualy solved what had been a bit of a mystery. You might recall my mentioning right at the begining of my quest that it was thought "Eric Stephenson" had undergone his Officer Training at Sandhurst. This belief was based upon a picture which a family member had spotted somewhere of a group on the obstacle course at Sandhurst, one of whom 'looked just like Eric'. I was a bit sceptical mainly because I knew that a number of training units were established specificaly for training from the ranks.

    However, I was wrong in that he did pass through Sandhurst, here is the evidence from the RMA's register! On a humerous note, Eric got a 'B' grade, not bad considering he was a Yorkshireman who I don't doubt called a spade a spade and probably had no idea how to pass the port!

    Also of interest is the guy alongside him who was also posted to the Indian Army who came from a Tank Regiment, I wonder what happened to him!
     

    Attached Files:

  3. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Congrats on that special find. It's always a wonderful feeling when new evidence comes to light.:)
     
  4. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    Movitone News Archive have a few 'shorts' on Burma & the Chindits. Obviously 're-staged' for the newsreel but very 'atmospheric'

    Film Title: THE CHINDITS - [​IMG]

    [​IMG] Play Clip

    [​IMG]
    Card Title: Chindits (Into Burma) Location: Burma Date: 31/05/1943 Length: 75 secs Story Number: 43711 Description: The "Chindits" are a specially trained force of British, Gurkhas and Burmese who have penetrated over three hundred miles into Japanese occupied Burma. Shot List.: Cut story - GS of British, Burmese soldiers on patrol, & cleaning their horses etc. GS of jungle, & CU of table of rupees, Burmese lined up receive their pay. Patrol approach Irriwady push small dinghies into river & wade across same. Leaflet being printed in the jungle also CU of Burmese broadcasting through mike, GS of loudspeakers fixed to trees, CU General Wingate moves out of camera to GS of him on horseback. Keywords: Occupied Countries; Military - Active; Animals - Domestic; Environment; Money; Ships and Boats; Propaganda; Communications; Media; Personalities - Armed Forces; Major General Orde Charles Wingate; 3rd Indian Division; Medicine and Health; Archibald Wavell, 1st Earl Wavell;World War II
    I simply searched "Gurkas" 1942 - 1944
     
  5. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Nice find again, watched it several times over, as you say very atmospheric.
    Plenty of rupees flying about.:)

    Need to alert some of the other guys about this sight, something for everyone I reckon.

    Thanks Binro.
     
  6. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    I have used both image and film libraries in the past in my profession, best for film have been Movitone and Pathe and for stills, Picture Post. However, the Picture Post archive seems to have been split-up. It's the old story, no interest in history just a desire to make a fast buck. Other still libraries include Hutton and Getty Images.

    In terms of cost, it's not for the faint hearted, as an example I bought the 'use' of a 90 second clip of 1940s newsreel to use in a limited circulation DVD release . . . £450-00! Stills are generaly much cheaper but if it's rare the price can be just as mind-blowing. The unique picture of Nixon with Mao on the Great Wall of China cost £350-00 to use in a 'Corporate Video' and that was 10 years ago!

    However, should you simply wish to preserve say a film clip for 'future reference' and are happy with the quality and size of the 'preview' offered by the library then you can do it quickly and easily with a piece of software called Snagit

    Snagit 10.0 - More than 40 Ways to Capture Your Screen! | Screen capture software | The ultimate screen capture tool

    Also great for stills, on screen indexes etc.
     
  7. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    I've been trawling through the British Library database compiling a reading list before heading there and came across these:

    Title: Indian Army Manoeuvres etc.
    Collection Area: India Office Records and Private Papers
    Reference: IOR/L/MIL/17/5/1807-1816
    Creation Date: 1900-1946
    Extent and Access:
    Extent: 10 volumes

    Just wondering if this might give 'yetanudda' version of events?

    Title: Recruitment into the Indian Army,
    3 Sep 1939-1 July 1945. New Delhi:
    C-in-C's Secretariat, Central Statistical Section, 1945.
    Collection Area: India Office Records and Private Papers
    Reference: IOR/L/MIL/17/5/2153

    I'm not sure of the format of this but I'm hoping it might give a clue as to why my relative ended up in 3/2 GR

    Title: Indian Army and Indian Army Reserve of Officers Wills
    Collection Area: India Office Records and Private Papers
    Reference: IOR/L/MIL/14/213
    Creation Date: c 1917-1921
    Extent and Access:
    Extent: 1 volume
    Contents and Scope:
    Contents: Wills of British Army soldiers granted temporary commissions in the Indian Army and IARO, with index

    I thought this might prove useful in confirming 'family links'.
     
  8. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    One of the items I looked at in the British Library was:

    2nd King Edward V11's Goorkha Rifles - Register of Casualties WW2

    W.ZDR.1992.A.88/2

    The book lists Name, Army No, Rank. Date of Casualty & Theatre, it lists K.I.A, Died & Wounded

    Under the Burma Theatre it lists:

    British Officers
    4 x K.I.A and Other Ranks 59
    3 x Died and Other Ranks 225
    6 x Wounded and Other Ranks 270

    Seems my 'subject' was the highest ranking officer to be K.I.A.
     
  9. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Binro,

    I have a very similar list which I converted to an Excel file if you are interested in it in that form?

    Did you manage to find him in any of the WW2 Indian Army lists for earlier in the war?
     
  10. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Under the Burma Theatre it lists:

    British Officers
    4 x K.I.A and Other Ranks 59
    3 x Died and Other Ranks 225
    6 x Wounded and Other Ranks 270

    Seems my 'subject' was the highest ranking officer to be K.I.A.


    I wonder if that listed Lt.Col. Alexander as died or as K.I.A.. Or maybe he wasn't listed at all as (if I'm not wrong) his original regiment is 5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (F.F.) instead 2nd Goorkhas.

    Is that cover both 3/2nd and 4/2nd or just the former?
     
  11. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    I wonder if that listed Lt.Col. Alexander as died or as K.I.A.. Or maybe he wasn't listed at all as (if I'm not wrong) his original regiment is 5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (F.F.) instead 2nd Goorkhas.

    Is that cover both 3/2nd and 4/2nd or just the former?

    The book covers just 2nd Gurkhas.
     
  12. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    Hi Binro,

    I have a very similar list which I converted to an Excel file if you are interested in it in that form?

    Did you manage to find him in any of the WW2 Indian Army lists for earlier in the war?

    Oh yes but got a headache from trying to read the awful text. He's a 2nd Lt. in April 1943 then jumps to Acting Captain in April 44 and is still Acting Captain in October 44 !

    Also took a look at:
    The Story of the Sirmoor Rifles by Lt Col E.D. Smith ORW.1997.a.1601

    Overall it's 'brief' as it covers a great many years but like many, he doesn't mince his words when talking about Wingate. He does say no good record of 2 Column because Col Alexander was killed.
     
  13. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    The book covers just 2nd Gurkhas.

    What I was asking is that casualty list for both 3rd and 4th Battalion of 2nd Gurkhas in Burma.
     
  14. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    I wonder if that listed Lt.Col. Alexander as died or as K.I.A.. Or maybe he wasn't listed at all as (if I'm not wrong) his original regiment is 5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (F.F.) instead 2nd Goorkhas.

    Is that cover both 3/2nd and 4/2nd or just the former?

    Alexander was recorded as having 'died', as was Major Conron the original commander of column 4, who Wingate replaced after he lost his nerve early on in the operation.
     
  15. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Oh yes but got a headache from trying to read the awful text. He's a 2nd Lt. in April 1943 then jumps to Acting Captain in April 44 and is still Acting Captain in October 44 !

    Also took a look at:
    The Story of the Sirmoor Rifles by Lt Col E.D. Smith ORW.1997.a.1601

    Overall it's 'brief' as it covers a great many years but like many, he doesn't mince his words when talking about Wingate. He does say no good record of 2 Column because Col Alexander was killed.

    Wingate was scathing in his remarks and opinions of most of the Gurkha columns commanders. Alexander, Emmett, Conron and even George Dunlop came in for heavy criticism during and after the operation. Conron was relieved of his command of column 4 and Wingate's Brigade Major George Bromhead took over. Dunlop and Wingate had words back in India, and court martial was mentioned, mostly because Dunlop had discussed the operation openly with others before the Brigadier had the chance to talk with him.

    I have a feeling that some of the censored parts of Wingate's debrief are exactly these feelings and remarks. During his whole Army career he would prepare immediate, frank (from his point of view) and sometimes tactless reports and debriefs. Many times these were sent back by more experienced senior officers with the advice of toning down and correcting these views, before the papers moved into the wider domain.

    Many believe that Wingate took his immense dislike of the British Indian Army's command structure out on the men of the 3/2 Gurkha Rifles, whether it was criticizing their officers or sacrificing their soldiers.
     
  16. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    What I was asking is that casualty list for both 3rd and 4th Battalion of 2nd Gurkhas in Burma.

    Oppps my appologies Sol, I still get Regiments and Battalions mixed up:mad:, yes ALL Batts in 2nd Regt.:)
     
  17. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    Alexander was recorded as having 'died', as was Major Conron the original commander of column 4, who Wingate replaced after he lost his nerve early on in the operation.

    I didn't look specificaly at Col Alexander's entry BUT as Maj Stephenson was the highest rank listed as KIA I can only assume Alexander was listed as 'died' as you state. Is this an error or did he die of disease?

    I rather regret now not having read Wingate's account first as by the time I actualy read it my mind was 'contaminated' somewhat. For example, I saw his instance upon operational orders being destroyed after reading not a military prudence but as 'covering his arse' LOL.

    I can't help wondering about the 'convenient' way his aircraft went down!
     
  18. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    I didn't look specificaly at Col Alexander's entry BUT as Maj Stephenson was the highest rank listed as KIA I can only assume Alexander was listed as 'died' as you state. Is this an error or did he die of disease?

    I rather regret now not having read Wingate's account first as by the time I actualy read it my mind was 'contaminated' somewhat. For example, I saw his instance upon operational orders being destroyed after reading not a military prudence but as 'covering his arse' LOL.

    I can't help wondering about the 'convenient' way his aircraft went down!


    Alexander was mortally wounded at the return crossing of the Mu River, he was carried away from the Japanese pursuers by Flight Lieutenant Edmonds and Lieutenant De la Rue. I am sure he didn't last much longer than a few more hours before he sadly died.

    It is difficult to know why this was recorded as died as opposed to KIA? Perhaps it is simply to do with being removed from the engagement rather than falling where you were wounded?

    We have discussed previously on the forum the 'conspiracy theories' of Wingate's death. I will try and dig the thread out.:)
     
  19. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

  20. Binro

    Binro Junior Member

    My apologies gentlemen for the long abscence!

    Last autumn my Mother had 'yetanudda' fall at home whilst intoxicated (she's not a lush, simply forgets how many she's had!). With a harsh winter approaching we held a family summit and decided to bit the bullet and move the pair of them into 'sheltered housing'. That in itself was traumatic as well as time consuming so my researches had to take a back seat.

    D-day or rather M-day was 31st October after which I was confident I could get back to my researches. However my father, until that point frail from his 89 years, but still alert and full of beans, started falling over regularly as well as falling asleep in the middle of conversations. Protests at the too dramatic change were ignored by the new GP but the mystery was solved within a few weeks when the paramedics were called after another fall and it was discovered he'd had a blood clot in his brain for at least the previous month.

    Surgery was the only option and despite his age and heart condition he survived it (so called D-Day dodgers were a tough breed!) but sadly a week later he was finally finished off by a hospital bug! Three months down the line and I'm still awaiting the Coroners verdict! Needless to say my dear old Mother now needs twice as much attention but at least I've now got time to get back to my digging, a good thing too as I now have a second project, that of filling in the gaps in his very adventurous life in Italy and Germany with the 24th Field Reg't RA
     

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