2692247 C.Q.M.S/C. Sjt George TEMPLETON , 1 Scots Guards: 15/11/1945

Date of Enlistment: 1927
Date of Death: 15 November 1945

Army Number: 2692247
Rank: Company Quartermaster Serjeant
Name: George TEMPLETON
Unit: Scots Guards

Date of Birth:
Place of Birth:

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2350276/george-templeton/
COMPANY QUARTERMASTER SERJEANT GEORGE TEMPLETON
Service Number: 2692247
Regiment & Unit: Scots Guards
Date of Death: 15 November 1945
Age 36 years old
Buried or commemorated at ROMSEY CEMETERY
Grave Reference: Sec. V. Grave 136.
Location: United Kingdom
Additional Info: Son of John and Elizabeth Templeton; husband of Elizabeth Templeton, of Bitterne Park, Southampton.
Personal Inscription: SAFE IN GOD'S KEEPING

 

Hi all

I have recently acquired a medal grouping I am very pleased with - they are to C.Q.M.S/C. Sjt George Templeton (his documents rank him as C.Q.M.S and his LSCG medal ranks him as C. Sjt) - Service No. 2692247.

He served 18 years in the Army - joined in 1927 and then died shortly after the end of WW2 of polio in November 1945.

I was wondering if anybody else was able to find anything else for this man online? I did a search on Findmypast and there seem to be some hits but I don't have a subscription.

I have his service record and several documents related to him specifically, I was just wondering if he would pop up in any other resources? I appreciate he's still an 'other rank' rather than an officer so won't be easy to locate but since he was senior in a Company of the 1st Battalion I thought it worth asking.

Does anyone happen to know if any of 1/Scots Guards war diaries are available online or would they need to be access in person in Kew?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Tom

 

Hi,

You’ve got the most important document from which to track his service - his service record (presumably the detailed papers from Findmypast ) but you may be lucky to find a passing mention of him in the unit war diary.

Forum members dbf has transcribed a couple of SG war diaries but not 1st SG. Have a look through this topic and once you’ve identified the ones you are interested in drop Drew5233 or Gary Tankard a line via the forum messaging service to see if they already have the diary. If not they may be able to look it up and copy it at U.K. National Archives.

Scots Guards: Reference Thread

Have you looked in the Regimental WW2 history? It contains 1st Battalion order of battle at various dates so he may be listed.

The Scots Guards 1919-1955 (Eriskine) – Scots Guards

Good Luck

Steve

 

Just checked the SG History which has one of the better Appendices, etc, of all Guards' histories. Couldn't find any listing for him.
He's not mentioned in the Index.
Also checked the SG Battalion Orbats on the off-chance, couldn't find his name, nor anyone with same appointments.
The SG Roll of Honour in Appendix A is restricted to KIA, DOW & Died in Active Service; so also no listing for CQMS Templeton.

Do records show him serving only in 1st Battalion for duration of his service?

 

Thank you Steve for the pointers!

Thanks for your reply. So his record confirms (I will try and scan this on shortly for reference) he attested into in 1/Scots Guards in March 1927.

His record confirms he transferred to 2nd Btn in November 1927 which is the same day he went for over a years service in China. He returned to home duties on 28 February 1929 and his record confirm he transferred back into 1st Btn Scots Guards on 24 April 1929.

He remained with the Battalion until December 1934 when he went on to serve a 4 years secondment with Royal West African Frontier Force (RWAAF) he then returned to the UK on 17 May 1938. He resumed service with 1st Battalion Scots Guards from 19 September 1938. He then remained with 1st Battalion until his death in November 1945.

Part of his record confirms service during WW2 in Norway with the BEF (07/04/1940-10/06/1940), then home duties until February 1943 when he shipped over to North Africa with 1st Army. A later letter from the Btn's Lieutenant Colonel confirms he saw service in Norway, North Africa, Anzio (Operation Shingle) and during the fighting from Cassino. He then went on to fight with the rest of 24th Guards Brigade, 6th SA Armoured Division from late May 1944 onwards. He was eventually evacuated to hospital in October 1944. He was jaundiced and suffering from hepatitis. He returned to duties in December but increasingly struggled with ill health and the Regiment had difficulties finding him a suitable non-frontline posting.

Hope this helps and thanks in advance for any further help
Tom

 

As Steve has mentioned, I don't have any War Diaries for 1st Bn SG. But below are the refs at TNA Kew, should you want to check them for any mention of him:

• WO 166/4107 1 Scots Guards. 1939 September - 1940 March; 1941 July - December
• WO 168/56 1 Scots Guards 1940 April - June
• WO 166/8578 1 Scots Guards 1942 January - December
• WO 175/489 1 Scots Guards 1943 January, March, June
• WO 169/10169 1 Scots Guards 1943 April - May; July - December
• WO 170/1352 1 Scots Guards 1944 January - December
• WO 170/4981 1 Scots Guards 1945 January - December
• WO 170/7980 1 Scots Guards 1946 January - June

 

Thanks again. If I was to request copies from TNA do you have a rough idea of what the costing would be? (speaking from experience I mean, I appreciate you don't have the records to check!). As I have no idea of the likely length I worry it could be too much of an undertaking.

I think in theory there are two periods I would really be interested in (subject to cost) would be:

• WO 168/56 1 Scots Guards 1940 April - June (to see what sort of service they had in Norway)
• WO 170/1352 1 Scots Guards 1944 January - December (for his part in the Italian Campaign)

The two records which would cover the North Africa fighting (Feb-May 1943 for 1/SG) would seemingly need two separate record requests and I'm unsure whether they would be worth it.

Thanks again for your help
Tom

 

Don’t go down the NA route. It’s far too expensive. Contact Gary or Andy as I suggested earlier today. They will charge a fraction of NA price.

 

I have the WDs from December 1943 until May 1945. Let me know which months you'd want. My charges are £0.07 a page.

If you require any other WDs, the cost is then £3 per file + £0.12 per page.

1 SG do contain monthly OOBs, which identify him as Right Flank CQMS at least in this period.

 

Thanks Gary, I have replied to your conversation message RE the diaries.

Out of interest, does anybody know the likely scope of responsibility of a Company Quarter Master Sergeant in the Scots Guards during WW2? I know he would be responsible for providing the men in his company with rations & ammunition etc, but would he have also been considered to be a frontline soldier. I'm aware its a frontline role and he would be at the same risk from artillery & air attack as other soldiers but would he ever expect to be employed in a combat role?

I know in grave circumstances of course anybody on the line could be thrown in (e.g. various service troops during the Battle of the Bulge as one example) but just wondering if Sgt Templeton would ever be expected to do the same after his posting as C.Q.M.S?

I had a look at the Scots guards website and found the following: The Second World War – Scots Guards - Regarding Anzio it says 'On 2 March the 1st Battalion was evacuated with a total strength of 238, having lost 666 all ranks, a third of them missing, mostly captured.' This attrition/loss could rate suggests that he could have ended up in a fighting role due to 'fighting' manpower strength issues? I appreciate this is guesswork without proof but wondering what people think.

And that leads to my second question, is the C.Q.M.S a specific rank or is it a role/posting that he had, whilst ranked as a Colour Sergeant (his LSGC medal ranks him as C. Sjt.).

Thanks in advance for any help
Tom

 

As a retired British army officer minden1759 is likely the best placed to provide an overview of the CQMS role although bexley84 may also be able to assist as his father was a wartime CQMS.

Steve

 

Thanks Steve, lets hope they see the thread

 

Thanks - Frank can probably provide a full description of the role.

I can only add a memory excerpt of what my father, CQMS Edmund O'Sullivan 2 LIR, faced at Stuka Ridge (north of Bou Arada in Tunisia) at the end of February 1943... an extreme example of what he might have faced at any time on the long road from Algiers to the Po... during the battles at Heidous, Centuripe, crossing the Simeto & Salso rivers, Maletto,Termoli, the Trigno & Sangro rivers, in the Liri Valley and at Trasimeno and in the high Apennines north of Florence, and during the final push through the Argenta Gap.. I "met" my father for the first time when he was 43 and he was my primary school teacher for 2 years but I never realised until much later that he probably always carried these visceral memories with him. i think of him a lot.

"On the evening of 25 February, I collected rations from the wadi near battalion headquarters, in complete darkness as usual. Captain Diarmid Conroy was there and he made the company quartermaster sergeants keep absolute silence as he said there appeared to be some enemy activity. I reached E Company where I was told to remain on Hadj and not distribute the outlying platoons’ rations until first light. We stood to for most of the night.

As dawn broke, I prepared to go out to the platoons. Captain Costello called Corporal Davies, Pop Eatwell, Percy Forde, a driver, and me and detailed his supply plan. Davies would go to 9 Platoon on Flat Top in the carrier driven by Pop, drop the rations and return immediately. Percy and I would go to 8 Platoon on Mosque Hill and do likewise. I did not like it. Flat Top was closer and the carrier was well protected. Our truck had open sides and a flimsy canvas hood. The journey was up a precipitous tree-covered track. But I kept my mouth shut.

We set off at the same time in opposite directions. The wire around E Company headquarters was pulled back and closed behind. Davies, in the carrier driven by a last-minute volunteer, wended its noisy way up the path to Flat Top that I had negotiated two days before on my mule. They stopped at the top, shouted and dumped the rations. As they returned to company headquarters, they came under fire. Nobody was there to open the wire to let them back into the base. The driver jumped out, started pulling back the wire and was killed. Davies managed to open the wire but was wounded and taken prisoner. Pop drove through the gap, jumped out and scurried to the nearest slit trench.

The Germans took advantage of the gap in the wire and poured through. The fighting on Hadj hill was to go on for three hours. Percy and I, meanwhile, had driven down the main track from headquarters and out on to the road past a 25-pounder battery which was firing. We turned right and took the winding path up to Mosque Hill. There was shooting and tracer flashed before us. We arrived at the bottom of the steep hill, surmounted by the mosque, and shouted, ‘Your rations are here!’ We dumped them on the ground. Percy turned the truck smartly and hurried back towards Hadj hill. More tracer was flying about. I ordered Percy to stop and, armed with a couple of grenades and our rifles, we prepared to sell ourselves dearly. We did not have a clear field of fire and could see little more than the bushes about 50 yards to our front.

I was going to move forward when the undergrowth in front of us started to shake violently. I shouted a warning to Percy and we were preparing to open fire when a goat’s head followed by about 20 others broke through the shrubs followed by a young lad. I tried to speak to him but he understood only Arabic. It was evidence that we were safe and we decided to head back to Hadj. On our way, we stopped close to a battery of 25-pounders. I tried to obtain information from them but they had none. There was a lot of firing from the direction of Hadj, evidence that E Company headquarters was under attack.

I reported to the adjutant, who took me to the commanding officer. I described my morning. He said that it was very confused and he had no information about E Company or its transport. Noting that I was armed, he told me to join the thin line of cooks, clerks and provost sergeants who were manning the headquarters’ defences. I fired a few rounds in the direction of the enemy but I was out of range of the Germans and probably did no damage. Conroy formed a fighting party consisting of himself as section leader, CSM Billy Girvin, Colour Sergeant Dann, Provost Sergeant Andy Gardiner, the cook sergeant, a couple of clerks and myself. We were to advance well spread out and endeavour to help G Company on Castle Hill in the battalion’s centre. It was hard pressed and in danger of being overrun.

I had started to move off when RSM Reid roared. ‘Colour Sergeant O’Sullivan, you are wanted by the commanding officer.’ Conroy said: ‘You’d better go.’

Thankfully, I ran to the commanding officer’s truck where he told me that he had contacted E Company at last and that they had withdrawn a couple of miles from Hadj and were dug in on a hill. They needed ammunition and I was to go with the RSM to find them as he was not certain of the position. I went back down the track, past the guns once more. I suggested that E Company had probably withdrawn to the west from Hadj. I might find them by going cross-country while Reid carried on by the track. This worked until I reached a steep cliff. On the top, I could see movement. I clambered up, feeling terribly exposed, and there was E Company. ‘I thought you were dead.’ was the greeting...

Some time later, Reid turned up with the guide sent to find him. What was left of E Company was a motley collection: survivors of 7 Platoon who had several casualties, company headquarters personnel and the drivers. Later, we were joined by Corporal Butler of intelligence, who had been on Flat Top, with two prisoners.

At dawn the next morning, an officer from battalion ordered Lieutenant Lyness, who had commanded the transport detachment, to march E Company back to Hadj and there to counter attack and retake the hill which never should have been evacuated. Once more I trudged the familiar track. How many miles had I walked in the last 24 hours?

The company formed up, attacked and re-took the hill but found it was occupied by only the dead, both German and British. The 25-pounders had blasted the hill with open sights and driven off the enemy. The stench of death was all pervading. Using an old towel, I cleaned the pieces of flesh which clung to the branches of the trees. We buried our dead with honour but not the enemy who were interred without ceremony.

F Company at Stuka Farm and G Company on Castle Hill had gallantly clung to their precarious positions while a detachment of Irish Fusiliers had protected the guns. I heard what happened to the section led by Captain Conroy which I almost joined. Sergeant Andy Gardiner and one other had been killed. CSM Girvin, Conroy, Colour Sergeant Dann and two others had been wounded. Dann’s condition was so serious he was later discharged...."

best wishes

 

Hi Richard

Thank you very much for your reply. Its amazing you have this account from your father and shows some of the extremes he had to contend with. I'm sure you're very proud.

Regarding my question it shows that depending on when a CQMS was in the frontline carrying out their assigned duties, they could very much end up in the thick of it. If anything arriving with the supplies could attract unwanted attention and fire from the enemy when the troops would otherwise be more safely 'dug in' and concealed. I also appreciate the fighting in North Africa (for both 1st and 8th Armies) tended to have more 'fluid' frontlines than could be expected later in Italy but still incredibly helpful thank you.

All the best
Tom

 

Thanks again. To coin a phrase - "he certainly did his bit"

His description of the battalion's final advance through the Argenta Gap in April 1945 (the Kangaroo Army) often draws my attention - his army nickname was 'Rosie' as he had sung the 'Rose of Tralee' at a battalion event just after he joined up in 1939.

"The speed of the advance was phenomenal and casualties were light. Having reached our objective, the Conselice Canal, the battalion dug in for the night.

I followed in a jeep, laden with a cooked meal, in the tracks left by the armour. It was comparatively peaceful as I crossed the Senio, now Bailey-bridged, on my way north behind the battalion and saw the double-banked Churchills of the early crossings. I served the meal for the company. As I finished, a corporal from a troop of recovery tanks approached. ‘Any overs left for my chaps, Dickie?,’ he asked. It was McVeigh from the (pre-war) Corpus Christi Football team.

Each day, the battalion fought and advanced rapidly while I had to return for cooked meals, haversack rations and, of course, the hot cakes. This meant I seldom had time for sleep. We crossed the canal and went on to the rivers Santerno and the Reno. At each obstacle, we would halt and stay overnight. This would give me the opportunity to catch up on a little sleep.

At almost the last halt, I was held up by a column of traffic. Directly behind me were trucks carrying reinforcements. I went back to speak to them, as some were returned wounded. I vaguely recognised one and asked him about his company. He claimed to have been with another company and was returning from hospital. Then I remembered. He was the young soldier so shaken by shellfire near Piedimonte the previous May that he had run away the same evening. I later learned that he had spent the time since in prison. He had been afraid. So had we all. I was terrified, but had a greater fear: to be seen to be frightened. I was 'Rosie'.. It meant baring my teeth in a smile, regardless...."

My father was promoted to RQMS (WO II) during the months of peacekeeping in southern Austria during 1945/46 - by that time, he was 26 & and had spent 5 years in the army... he would make it to the grand age of 90.

Faugh a Ballagh

 

Just reviving this thread very briefly! I have spotted that on Findmypast there seems to be a service record for George Templeton on there. Could anybody advise me what is in it? I already have some of the service docs for him, I would just like to know what this includes online and whether its worth my trying to get a months subscription to access it or not.

Here is the search in question: Search Results for Military, armed forces & conflict | findmypast.co.uk

I still hope one day to track down a photo of Templeton - as a Colour Sergeant and CQMS you would hope he ended up in a unit photo at least once in his years and years of service! Though whether it would be annotated or not who knows.

Thanks in advance for any help!
Tom

 

Hi,

When I first looked at SG papers on FMP during lockdown extensive service files were available for men who had enlisted pre 1936. Some files had 200+ pieces of paper (some duplicates).

I looked again during the Remembrance free access week. “Files” are now available for men who enlisted until 1945 but contents are disappointing compared to pre 1936 files and are more in line with WW2 files made available on Ancestry. A fair few comprised only the file frontispiece sheet.

I noted pre 1936 files I looked at had not been reduced to mirror contents in latter files.

I expect you will find a thick file of papers for your man. Your local library may allow free access?

Steve

 

It is full full-service record and more - it contains correspondence from the Scots Guards. There are about 75 pages (the first image is #314, the last one #389).

 

Thanks both, I will sort out my subscription now then as it certainly sounds worth checking out.