2612457 Vivian Charles BRUNGER, Grenadier Guards: Grandfather help deciphering records pls

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by RealNoyesy71, May 19, 2011.

  1. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Yamaha 600S Diversion (I use it everyday) in need of lots of TLC! :)

    Anyway, if you go back to the early parts of the record, I saw 3rd and 5th Bns mentioned. Now I think 3rd Bn was his original one from 1930-37 when he went to Egypt and 5th Bn was his posting to N.Africa. Between 1939-43, he was in a Home bn, training and stuff an I can only assume that he went to Africa and Italy as a reinforcement.
    Once all relevant info is established, I then need the Regimental Diary, which I believe someone has a copy of from the NA. I hope that will give me locations and more detailed information.
     
  2. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Apart from the initial franking at top right 5th Bn there is no indication on the records of a posting occurence or date to the 5th Bn GG. From 10/10.45 until 6/8/46 he was a paid WS (War Substansive) MP Sgt at 32 Military Police/Detention Barracks, have to find out where that was in CMF- Central Mediteranean Force.
     
  3. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Well, I know he was in Austria at a place called Lienz from 1945ish and came back to Colchester for a year or so prior to demob in 1949.
    Lienz is a whole new episode as I believe it is where Russian POW's (mainly Cossacks) were handed back to Russia where they were liquidated for cowardice. We had to hand them back as a bargain to get our own PoW's back from Eastern Europe. A sad sorry state of affairs in British history.
    I have a few pics of this time
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Austria (BTA) 30/11/47 to 15/5/48


    Date of discharge 12/8/49 Total service 18 years 287 days
    of which pensionable service 16 years 306 days..


    Having checked the history of the Royal Military Police the MPRS on records - Its is Military Prison/Provost Staff Corp 1901, name change in 1906 from prison to provost- until 1992 when the Adjutant Generals Corp took over responsibility and is now under military provost. Prisons were at this time (06) renamed - Detention Barracks. Guardsmen ( he transferred to MPSC) and Guards regiments have often been associated with military detention. In BAOR late 1970s 2nd Bn Scots Guards was the 'punishment battalion'. Defaulters from all units in Germany given more than the commanding officers 28 days, ie courts martial, were rather than being sent to Colchester, sent to us. Not one asked for a return booking!
     
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945, Forbes &Nicolson, pages 527 & 528
    THE HOLDING BATTALION
    In April 1940, the bulk of the Kempton Park Detachment was moved to Barracks in Wellington Barracks in LONDON to form the HOLDING BATTALION. In the early years the Battalion had three main functions. The first was to form a secondary pool of reinforcements; the second, to mount King's Guard and other public duties in rotation with other battalions of the Brigade; and the third was to provide guards for the inner defences of LONDON, at Whitehall, Downing Street, the War Office and Westminster. These duties, and the lack of suitable areas within easy reach, made the HOLDING BATTALION unsuitable for the training of recruits. As the war progressed, the Battalion was therefore filled by older soldiers who were temporarily employed, by drafts from disbanded service Battalions, and by those who were convalescing from wounds or serious illness. If Victoria Barracks, Windsor, was the Regiment's nursery, Wellington Barracks was its waiting room and hall. In November, 1943, the HOLDING BATTALION was disbanded and its place was taken by the WESTMINSTER GARRISON BATTALION, which was composed of detachments from the three senior regiments of the Brigade of Guards.


    From The Coldstream Guards 1920-46, Howard & Sparrow, page 20
    Towards the end of 1943 there was such a shortage of men that it was necessary to combine the Holding Battalion of the Grenadiers, the Coldstream, and the Scots Guards into one battalion, ... and, later a mixed company of Irish and Welsh Guards .... The battalion was called the Westminster Garrison Battalion and was stationed in Wellington Barracks.
     
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Embarked, UK, 18/07/43
    Dis-embarked - Entered Theatre of Operations, N. Africa, 28/7/43

    From The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945, Forbes & Nicolson, page 351

    THE TUNISIAN CAMPAIGN
    As the flow and disposal of prisoners became more manageable, the Battalions [3rd, 5th, 6th ] had men and time enough to resume their tactical training. All of them were brought up to full strength, including reserves, by the arrival of a large draft of Grenadiers under Major W.E.P. MILLER. They staged at the reinforcement camp at PHILIPPEVILLE, which was commanded by Colonel R.B.R. COLVIN, and here the three Commanding Officers converged to pick the officers and men for their Battalions.

    The margin has June 29 but I believe this to be a typo, as the previous entry on page before is for July 1943.
     
  7. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Glad you mention that book.
    I have purchased Vol II from the Central Library and they are holding onto Vol I until I pay for it.
    I'm reading before bedtime
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Apart from the initial franking at top right 5th Bn there is no indication on the records of a posting occurence or date to the 5th Bn GG. From 10/10.45 until 6/8/46 he was a paid WS (War Substansive) MP Sgt at 32 Military Police/Detention Barracks, have to find out where that was in CMF- Central Mediteranean Force.

    Just saw VM on your own profile ;)

    I totally agree with Wills here. I've gone over and over the dates, and see nothing to indicate 5bn in his actual service details post embarkation. He disembarks N. Africa, is sent to hospital and upon discharge is put on X List awaiting to be taken on strength again ... thereafter taking duties on attachment with Military Police, at first on probation and then with another unit.

    If you check post 4, the first hospital was based in Philipville ... which tallies with the account of the reinforcement camp from pg 351 of the History. You'll need to recheck the dates on his file with the dates listed in post 4 to verify.

    I think you will have to check for records of these MP/DB units rather than get War diaries for any of the GG battalions in Tunisia. Use the link I sent you for Lee's War Diary Search engine, rather than the TNA search engine. It'll yield far better results.

    Given his skills it's more than likely that he'd have been intended to serve with a Pioneer platoon, HQ Company (as Wills has also mentioned) rather than sent to a rifle coy. Did he ever mention the name of an officer from before he left for N. Africa?

    The Pioneer Platoon of the 6th Bn made this cross in honour of their fallen comrades.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/brigade-guards/14350-mareth-cross.html
     
  9. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Pioneer; DO/215W/40 DHC Promoted U/Cpl (Unpaid) wef, 15/8/40 within the establishment (this usually means local promotion - not within the regiment, on return to unit - not recognized - SAS soldiers returning to the Regiment did not bring rank or seniority with them even in my time ) This promotion to count against rank of Pioneer Sgt. (against should read for/towards!)

    DO/254W/40 Lcp 22/10/40 - Remains mustered as Pioneer within establishment- DHC

    We also had Assault Pioneers, types who were allowed to play with bang making gear, used as battalion troops to blow obstacles or clear routes.
     
  10. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Well thanks for that.
    Looking at the records, he was x (iv) list as soon as entering theatre in July. Here he seems to be kicking around until he went to 100 Gen Hosp (Philipville) in November, then 96 Gen Hosp (Guelma) in December. According to my Uncle, he had diphtheria, which stopped him from being sent back home to join the Guards Armoured Brigade training for the invasion of Europe. This is what he told me anyway. It's possible that this illness stopped himfrom being sent into the frontline and they made use of his skills elsewhere.
    The probationary period with MPSC didn't start until June '44, which seems to be a long time out but maybe the illness does that to you?
    Having to leave the GG and become, in effect, a jailer must have been a huge backward step. Apart from a couple of years, he had been a professional soldier since 1930.
     
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I wouldn't see that as a backward step at all. Just because he wasn't in a service battalion doesn't mean that he didn't have an important role - which freed up others. Let's look at it another way, he was pre-war regular who was still in Theatre. Experienced Guardsmen found themselves on attachment to various units, and duties such as these were quite common. My father knew a GG RSM who 'ran' a military prison.

    You'd have to ask a veteran such as Tom about how long one might end up on X list, but I know of some who were wounded and on it for months. I shouldn't think diphtheria was easy to get over even though penicillin was prioritised for troops. My husband's grandfather died after an industrial accident in a shipyard and the family were told such treatment would likely have saved his life, so your grandfather was lucky ... and tough enough to carry on active service not only during the war, but after.
     
  12. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    I've just looked up diphtheria on wiki and I'm not surprised he was out of the game for so long! Contagious, either by direct physical contact or breathing in and very deadly in some cases due to the toxin in the bloodstream.
     
  13. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    This is the record of a good soldier. There is not one disciplinary occurrence in all of nearly 19 years of regular service. He must have been an impressive Guardsman on all of his postings he has been recommended for pay or promotion. Experience? As a weapons instructor (LSgt) at the Depot under a Scots Guards Superintending Sergeant, an old hand with 19 years in. Hard as nails, 'Perfection laddie? That's nae bloody good tae me you'll dae better than that!' Hard as nails, the 'crows' (recruits) were his they were going to be the best in the depot or know why not! Fair, encourage when a crow lost confidence push those he could see were future stars. He was never going to see active service again, but he would give his lads the best chance at survival when they were called for active service. He was of more value as a first class trainer. He would never ask us his staff or any recruit to do that which he could not or would not do. We were on the March and Shoot rehearsal full battle order. Start at Colony Gate Pirbright and Tab(Timed run) back to the Depot across country, up the sand hills, to the assault course 22 obstacles then, one man drops out whole section fails, another tab to the ranges where the targets popped up at 100. 200 and 300 at a pre arranged time you had to make sure you got there in time! The earlier the better you could calm your breathing, or have a quick weed -Knock down as many times as you could with the ammunition issued 70% strike rate was a section pass, the GPMG gunner also had to achieve the same strike rate. As we prepared to start- last gasp on the weed, one crow said we will leave you behind Sergeant -'I laddie for a couple o' mile I will probably be looking at your back, after 5, 10 , 15 or tomorrow morning you will be looking at my back!' It has always struck with me. this man who made their lives hell at times. On the day they passed out queuing up with mums and dads to introduce the best soldier in the army! He went onto to become a Colour Sergeant recruiter on the Long List.


    imagesCAW24IRH.jpg
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I've hyperlinked a couple of pages for you ... click the underlined words.
    No, not a minor ailment at all.
     
  15. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Cheers both of you.
    He was a lovely bloke and I suppose he just got on with his job. I couldn't ever see him in trouble, unlike me.
    I'll stick some pics of him up at some point and of his medals. No VC's, MM's or the like in there but they're mine and I love 'em :)
     
  16. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    A couple of other things I have found, I don't know whether you can read them, but here they are:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    A couple of pictures of the man himself:

    [​IMG]
    As a young Guardsman

    [​IMG]
    This was taken in Lienz, Austria so that would be 1946/7

    [​IMG]
    Have no idea where this was but it's him on the left with Staff Sergeant rankings so again around 1945/6
     
  17. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Now why have those come out sideways?
    Have done the rotate thing and it's still not working. Grrr!!
     
  18. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Another picture I found was this:

    [​IMG]

    Unfortunately it got damaged in a move so I need to sort that out. You'll find my Grandfather third row from top, sixth man along. Pretty much bang in the middle with cap at a slightly jaunty angle :)

    The gentleman in the front row, 2nd from left, Lt (later Major) Stucley, died from diphtheria in September 1943. Weird?
     
  19. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Wonderful photograph - Depot Companies 1936.Trained Soldier in this picture, usually a TS would have a bunk in a block, and show the recruits what was expected of them. Some of the officers are in Frock Coats ( Blue Jumper) I saw a second hand one for sale recently £1095! Many Guardsmen will have a photograph similar to this the date might change but not much else.


    The Garrison Sergeant Major on the Troop 2011 was wearing the new badge of office.


    imagesCABZLCG7.jpg

    imagesCAY3LOZ4.jpg
     
  20. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Nice bit of schmutter!
    Joking aside, they look damn good don't they?
    We went to London not do long ago mainly for the Army Museum and Guards Museum. Whilst there we watched some newbies go through their paces out front and one of them was sporting a real shiner! Obviously couldn't keep his mouth shut.
     

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