2612457 Vivian Charles BRUNGER, Grenadier Guards: Grandfather help deciphering records pls

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by RealNoyesy71, May 19, 2011.

  1. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Hi

    As you may have read in my intro page, my Grandfather was with the Grenadier Guards (3rd Bn I think? Not sure now) and I'm trying to piece together his movements from 1943 to Wars' end and a bit beyond.
    It's all part of my grand plan to get an adventure bike, toddle off on my own and make the trip and follow him albeit some 70-odd years later.
    On reading his service record, he was with the H.Bn (Home/Household Battalion?) at Chelsea Barracks until 18/07/1943 when he was 'embarked' in the UK. On 28/07/1943, he 'Dis-embarked - Entered Th.of Ops in North Africa. Posted to X(iv) list. This was same day.
    Other entries include:
    16/11/43 - Admitted 100 Gen Hosp and posted to x(ii) list. Where was hosp?
    06/12/43 - Trfr to 96 Gen Hosp, again where?
    29/06/44 - Att. No.1 DP&Detn Camp on probation prior to transfer MPSC

    Some of the abbreviations are confusing as well.
    Unit: xivNA, xiiNA, xiNA, xiCMF
    1D/FPB
    32MP/DB
    SOS to BTA

    Just seen on front of Army Form R.103, the Corps, Unit and Army Number section in top right.
    We have: Grenadier Guards 3rd Bn (and Army number). This must have been the first enlistment in 1930 thru to 1937.
    Next is Guards Armoured Training Wing.
    Next 5th Bn
    Finally MPSC

    If any of the above makes sense to anyone, can I have some help please :)
    I have been to the National Army Museum and the Guards Museum in London but both seemed a bit unhelpful even though I took everything with me.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    Hi, will try to help! but others will be able to help you more.
    NA North Africa
    CMF Central Mediterranian Force
    DB Depot Battalion/Brigade
    SOS BTA - Struck off strength British Troops Austria

    If they are wrong, someone will correct me I am sure!

    Lesley
     
  3. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    MPSC I think is Military Provost Staff Corps

    If it is not too personal, why don't you upload his service record and people will be able to help more.

    :DOh by the way, pleased to see another member interested in motorcycles.

    This thread seems to be on user introductions as well! Maybe the threads could be merged??
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    H. Battalion = Holding Battalion, an in-between state eg after training and before being sent as reinforcement to a particular fighting battalion.


    Sue has done some work on British General hospital locations
    see her website Location of Hospitals WW2 - Scarlet Finders

    16/11/43 - Admitted 100 Gen Hosp and posted to x(ii) list. Where was hosp?
    100 British General Hospital
    Woolwich 10/42 to 1/43 then overseas;
    Algiers 1/43 to 2/43 and then to Philippeville;
    Philippeville 2/43 to 1/44 then to Cancello;
    Cancello 1/44 to 11/44 then to Afragola;
    Afragola 11/44 to 5/45 then to Perugia;
    Perugia 5/45 to 5/45 then to Arezzo;
    Arezzo 5/45 to 9/45 then to Florence;
    Florence 9/45 to 3/46 then to Rome;
    Rome 3/46 to 30/6/46 then disbanded.

    06/12/43 - Trfr to 96 Gen Hosp, again where?
    96 British General Hospital
    Peebles 9/42 to 11/42 then overseas;
    Maison Carree (Algiers) 11/42 to 12/42 then to Guelma;

    Exmouth 11/44 to 1/45 then to Kain;
    Kain 1/45 to 5/45 then to Tournai.
     
  5. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Ta very much.
    I knew the MPSC abb and I've got to get down to Portsmouth where the RMP museum is to have a look round.
    Some stuff I do know but having it confirmed by those more knowledgeable than I is always welcome.
    4jonboy (Lesley, am I right?), if I knew how to do it, I would. My wife is pretty good at stuff like that. I'm a complete technoplum. Hang on, I know it's Lesley, you signed off with your name. Plonker.

    Motorcycles? Ohhhhh yeahhhhhh!!!!!!! I've got a Divvy 600S. Gets me to work and back. I love it cos I can abuse it (not on purpose) and it will still love me.
     
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  7. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Great, thanks very much :)

    I'll check those out.

    Edit: Crikey, that abbreviations list is an exhaustive piece of work
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Do you have a unit for when he embarked?

    I've already quoted 3rd Bn, so here's the list for the 5th.

    5th Battalion Grenadier Guards
    WO 166/4102 5 Grenadier Guards 1941 Oct.- Dec.
    WO 166/8573 5 Grenadier Guards 1942 Jan.- Dec.
    WO 166/12467 5 Grenadier Guards 1943 Jan., Feb.
    WO 175/486 5 Grenadier Guards 1943 Feb.- Apr.
    WO 169/10164 5 Grenadier Guards 1943 July- Dec.
    WO 170/1350 5 Grenadier Guards 1944 Jan-Dec
    WO 166/17140 5 Grenadier Guards 1945 Apr., May
    WO 170/4980 5 Grenadier Guards 1945 Jan.- Mar.
     
  9. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    For the embarked entry I have in the Order or other authority box - W5169

    Any help?
     
  10. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    No help.
    What was his last unit designation before embarkation then - 5th Bn?? I'm assuming that there are a few -"- dittos in the left hand side margins ...

    Chris,
    If you have a digital camera, take a few pics, but if you're uncomfortable posting all of it, then try cropping and then post up here.

    There are a few on here who can read the originals like they were written in ordinary English. Appeal for help from them, if you prefer dealing by email or PM instead.
     
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  12. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    I've also got in the same box HBGG/120/10 or X60/43. I think these were the Part 1 or II orders.
    Yes there are are quite a lot of dittos mainly after H.Bn so he was a reinforcement.

    I have a quality Kodak camera with a document photography feature on it, so I'll take some on there and post them up. I have to admit it's like trying to read my Doctors handwriting!! :)
     
  13. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Hi

    Finally I have mastered, albeit badly, how to do this uploading malarkey, so below are pics of my Grandfathers service record.
    If anyone can help with any information, please have a look and if you need screenshots or to print off any pic via your own computer, please feel free to do so. You will be helping me out after all.
    I'll try and put them in chronological order:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Many thanks and all your help is appreciated.

    Noyesy :)
     
  14. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Oh whoops, I haven't reduced the size.
    Sorry
     
  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Never worry about that , in this case the size will be a help to those who might be able to read them.
     
  16. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    When you look through a document like this you begin to realise just how busy the poor old pay clerks were, pay scale up and down with rank,trade and LS and GC - Long Service and Good Conduct Pay once at 3d per Diem and again at 6d. On at least one occasion reverting to Lcpl at own request. I note he has been trade tested as carpenter and joiner this would suggest time spent in the Pioneer Platoon. There is so much to choose, a few salient points; as of 1944 Medically graded B2 (Home Service Only or Restricted Service) Then after being graded B2 Perm he is regraded A1! On the PULHHEEMS medical. I shall enjoy wading through what is after all the service and life of a long serving Guardsman. It will be seen that the prefix U or U/A or A Lcpl - Unpaid, Unpaid acting or acting Paid Lcpl. What might not be appreciated that in fact, Lance Corporal was not a rank until 1961 in the British Army. Before that date it was an appointment.

    Physical
    Upper Extremities
    Locomotion
    Hearing (L)
    Hearing (R)
    Eye (L)
    Eye (R)
    Mental Capacity
    Stability - Emotional.

    DP&Detn Camp - Displaced persons and Detention Camp. This would be for refugees and those arrested for investigation. Attached as staff.



    We can look at this entry:

    Part II
    Order

    254/W DHQ. Granted LS & GC (long Service and Good Conduct) pay at 3d per Diem. w.e.f. 05/12/40. Confirmed that no reg (regimental) entry was incurred for past two years. To qualify for LS&GC pay the recipient must not have contravened regulations to regimental level. IE, a 252 charge at commanding officers or above level.

    Chelsea Lcpl 3/5/41

    Re: X list at present I have found a reference to a member of the Queen's Regiment posted to the X list (POW camp) as an interpter X (iv) b and therafter to X (iv) A 1/ITD. More research.

    x/10/44 31/12/47 Granted 1st award of LS&GC pay (arears to be applied for wef, 10/10/40)
     
  17. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    That's brilliant Will!
    What I have posted is just his WWII service. He went in as an 18 yo in 1930 and did 7 years, mainly in Egypt.
    You mentioned carpentry. He was brilliant at it and I always remember his wooden-handled chisels, routers, etc in the garden shed with his homemade workbench. The smell of linseed and preserver. Gotta stop. Getting emotional.
     
  18. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Part II Order 119/45 - War Substantive Sergeant. Re-engaged for MPSC on 07/08/45 for such terms as shall complete 21 years service under the provision of AGIs (adjutant generals instructions) by authority deputy adjutant general -general headquarters 2nd Echelon CMF (central Mediterranean command. Some may wonder at the detail kept when in the middle of war. A pal of mine who made ORQMS (chief clerk) said we could get by in the forces without ammo, stuffed if we ran out of paper!


    imagesCAW24IRH.jpg Once a Gdsm always a Gdsm!

    Regards, a Jock!

    This is the record of a very good soldier an old hand who knew the ropes. He has successfully manoeuvred his way around the complexities of the pay scales of the day - I am envious! On one occasion he has reverted to a lower rank, well on the face of it this may seem odd. However, there are times when a lower rank with trade pay and other qualifications can be paid more. A regular soldier. trade pay. rank pay with LS & GC pay and signing on for the full 22 years. If looking after a family he would have used this experience. Within days of him rejoining the colours in 1939 it is on part II orders appointed Lcpl by CO, and absorbed into establishment - Depot. After 7 years colour service prior. he was taken on Depot Staff on recall.


    Anything on here you would like deciphering I will be glad to have a go
     
  19. RealNoyesy71

    RealNoyesy71 Member

    Using his experience, that sounds like him! :)
    If I remember correctly, my uncle and eldest aunt were born prior to WWII, so being paid more certainly helped and my grandparents had moved into the house where I spent the first years of my life by 1940.
    Admittedly, he was a quiet man for whom the Army was his life. Even after demob he joined the territorials and was with them until the '60's. I've got his Territorial Efficiency medal at home along with all his others. They were a fascination to me as a child and I took every opportunity to handle them. They are my proudest possessions.
    Any help with the records are greatly appreciated but what I would also like is to establish his movements. Where he was, what he did, any action, places, etc. Just to build up a picture of someone who I loved immensely but wouldn't talk about it like so many others.
     
  20. Skybot

    Skybot Junior Member

    MPSC I think is Military Provost Staff Corps

    If it is not too personal, why don't you upload his service record and people will be able to help more.

    :DOh by the way, pleased to see another member interested in motorcycles.

    This thread seems to be on user introductions as well! Maybe the threads could be merged??

    Beloved 2001 California special sport that makes 3 of us.
    Skybot.
     

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