What an incredible site and such a wealth of knowledge. I am hoping someone can help me with information about my father’s WWII experience. Specifically, I am looking for: 1. RAC Depot Puna (India) 21 May 42 – 29 Jul 43. 2. 3 H Battalion (Middle East) 3 Sep 43 -15 Apr 44 3. 3 Training Corps (Italy AAI & CMF) 2 Dec 44 - 6 Jan 45 I am looking for the information in relation to 7889785 James Coubrough. I have his Certificate of Service booklet and it provides the Active Service Abroad – Theatres he served in and the to and from dates. I wrote to RAC Records in 1985 requesting information on what units he served in and when. They provided me with a list roughly corresponding to his Certificate of Service dates. It included the three units above but when I wrote to the RTR Museum for more information, they said they knew nothing about them. He enlisted into the Royal Tank Corps on 27 Oct 38. He was posted to 2Bn RTR on 14 Jul 39. He served with 2 RTR in BEF France, Middle East, Burma and India. He was then posted to the units mentioned above. He was subsequently posted to 59 Trg Regt in the UK until the end of the war. After the war he served with 5 RTR in Ham/Hohne and 3 RTR in the UK and Hong Kong. He was discharged on 2 Apr 52. He then enlisted in the NZ Army and served 12 years in the Royal NZ Armoured Corps. I read that someone has a complete copy of the 2 RTR War Diary but it is a very large and comprehensive document. I have copies of “The Tanks” Vo1 & 2 but I have not seen a copy of Chadwick’s “Seconds Out”. Two other considerations: I live in NZ and I have served in the NZ Army so I have some understanding of Army abbreviations and jargon. I look forward to hearing from anyone who can help with any information. Regards, Jim
Well that seems to have hit a dead end which is perhaps not surprising given the unusual nature of the units in question and in the context of the RAC/RTR. I have attached a copy of the MOD letter 26 Apr 85. Perhaps if I make some additional comments from my own research it may lead to some additional information. 1. RAC Depot Poona (India) 21 May 42 – 29 Jul 43. 2 RTR were withdrawn to Imphal, Manipur then Ranchi in May 42. Family anecdotes record that he was in hospital while he was in India as a result of “showing off” on a motorcycle and suffering injuries – broken collar bone/arm? 2 RTR eventually departed for Iraq on 21 Sep 42 and then to Italy in May 44. The RAC Depot in India was at Ahmednager which is 120km from Poona and some individuals of 7 Armd Bde remained there as instructors. There were a number of hospitals in the Poona area which were used for British Army casualties during WW II. No 3 Indian British General Hospital was in Poona & 6 British General Hospitals [BGH] operated in/near Poona. Therefore, the reference to Poona may have been in holding personnel or it could have been a Forces Hospital. 2. 3 H Battalion (Middle East) 3 Sep 43 -15 Apr 44 3 H Battalion could either be a “heavy” battalion in the sense of “heavy tanks” or more likely a “holding” battalion in the sense of soldiers pending a posting. He could have been on the staff or otherwise pending a posting to another RAC unit. 2 RTR was in Iraq and Egypt during this time. Was he with them from 30 Jul 43 until posted to 3 H Battalion on 3 Sep 43? He was 21 years old having served for 4 years with them and already been in action in France, Nth Africa and Burma so maybe it was a chance to give him a break from active service? 3 H Battalion may not have been an RAC unit. 3. 3 Training Corps (Italy AAI & CMF) 2 Dec 44 - 6 Jan 45 The use of the word “Corps” for a training unit seems very unusual in an RAC context. 2 RTR went to Italy at the same time Apr 44, and so did he serve with them for 8 months before he went to 3 Training Corps in Dec 44? According to the booklet “The Italian Campaign 3 Sep 43 -2 May 45 RAC” by Maj Gen H.L. Birkes Maj Gen, RAC, there is no 3 Training Corps listed under the comprehensive list of RAC Units and Formations. However, the RAC Training Depot was brought to Italy from Nth Africa in Mar 44. It was originally located at Bovino near Foggia on the east of the Appenines. In Sep 44, it moved forward to Rieti 50 miles NE of Rome and remained there until the end of the campaign. It is quite likely that 3 Training Corps is not an RAC unit. Unless there is a specific War Office document/ORBAT referring to these units (eg WO 212 War Office: Orders of Battle and Organisational Tables 1918-1964), it may be difficult to find any information about the existence of these units. I look forward to hearing from anyone who can help with any information. Regards, Jim
Is anyone able to help me please with some questions about my fathers RAC Tracer Card? After reaching a brick wall for now trying to get his service records, and after reading about the RAC Tracer Cards being available from the Tank Museum Library, I applied for a copy which I have now received. They were very helpful and prompt with a response. A copy is enclosed. Base Depot India 16.9.42 Could this be the same as RAC Depot Poona, (which is in the MOD letter) or is it RAC Depot India because the RAC is written underneath between Depot and India in the posting number. Could they all mean the same thing? XII India 19.1.43 Would this be admitted to hospital? Posted X(iv) India 28.3.43 It seems unusual that he is awaiting a posting in March when the line below shows he was posted X(i) to F.V. Sch India 15.2.43 F.V. School India. I assume that is Fighting Vehicle School. Was that located at Poona? (Xiv) ME 14/8/43 Would this mean he was at the RAC Base Depot in Egypt awaiting a posting? Posted 3rd Hussars 3.9.43 This clearly solves the 3 H Battalion question as the date is the same! I have seen 3rd Hussars referred to as 3 H in War Dairies! Would it be unusual for an RTR man to be posted to the Hussars rather than back to 2 RTR or another RTR Bn? XIV/NA 2.12.44 What does NA refer to? The MOD letter refers to a posting to 3 Training Corps on that date. 3rd Hussars were sending men home on the Python scheme about this time and he may have been eligible for that. RAC Depot/UK 7.1.45 Would that mean Bovington? It is also the same date 3rd Hussars left Italy for the Middle East. 2ARU X I v a /21 AG 9.6.45 Does ARU mean Armoured Reinforcement Unit? What category is XIva? I assume 21 AG is 21 Army Group XII/ BAOR & X2 BAOR. Is this some sort of detachment away from BAOR as he went back to the UK for some courses during his posting to 5 RTR? RAC ??? 23/52 17.2.52 Y6 Is this a transfer to a Reserve List? I look forward to any help thank you. Cheers, Jim
Jim, There are a mass of threads here on Poona, it was the second largest Army camp in India and there was a RAC / RTR base camp there - from a glance not much more information, though several references to 146 RAC being there. Have you tried to track down this item? From an advert for one item sold: From: British Army RAC Training Depot Rieti Italy 1945 Tanks History Cavalry Regiment • £16.00 The role of the Rieti Depot: Rieti R.A.C. Training Depot 1944/45 This is one of several threads here. I expect this is a mistaken entry: It should be BAOR.
Hi, It might help you to have sight of this thread as you try to interpret the various X list references on the Tracer Card. X lists (Service Records) In my experience the British Army only used X1 to X4 during WW2 but I’ve seen references as high as X8 on post war service files but I’ve yet to find an official document explaining the post war X lists. You need to be bear in mind that the RAC Tracer cards appear to fulfil the same function as the official Army Form B102 and record some, but often not all, of a man’s movements (in abbreviated military shorthand) that are recorded in greater detail on other forms held in a man’s service record file. If and when you get his papers from U.K. MOD you my find more detail in the B103 forms but MOD will not provide the various posting authorities/orders or any other helpful minutiae that I have seen in Scots Guards service record files available on Findmypast site. In relation to your queries posted last week (it would’ve been helpful if they had been numbered but I have copied and numbered them below) I can assist as follows - my replies in bold. 1. Base Depot India 16.9.42 Could this be the same as RAC Depot Poona, (which is in the MOD letter) or is it RAC Depot India because the RAC is written underneath between Depot and India in the posting number. Could they all mean the same thing? No Knowledge. 2. XII India 19.1.43 Would this be admitted to hospital? In my experience this is likely a correct assumption. 3. Posted X(iv) India 28.3.43 It seems unusual that he is awaiting a posting in March when the line below shows he was posted X(i) to F.V. Sch India 15.2.43 The Tracer cards were maintained centrally on the basis of papers received from other units. The papers did not always arrive in chronological order so you often see entries out of sequence. I’d suggest that the Xiv reference means he was in transit between units somewhere in India but the record does not show a destination unit - likely a clerical gap that his full papers will hopefully fill in, 4. F.V. School India. I assume that is Fighting Vehicle School. Was that located at Poona? No knowledge. 5. (Xiv) ME 14/8/43 Would this mean he was at the RAC Base Depot in Egypt awaiting a posting? My usual interpretation of Xiv is that it denotes a journey/transit from one unit to another. In this context it may denote the commencement of his movement from India to Egypt. 6. Posted 3rd Hussars 3.9.43 This clearly solves the 3 H Battalion question as the date is the same! I have seen 3rd Hussars referred to as 3 H in War Dairies! Would it be unusual for an RTR man to be posted to the Hussars rather than back to 2 RTR or another RTR Bn? No knowledge 7. XIV/NA 2.12.44 What does NA refer to? The MOD letter refers to a posting to 3 Training Corps on that date. 3rd Hussars were sending men home on the Python scheme about this time and he may have been eligible for that. NA is North Africa - British North Africa Forces (BNAF) but I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on that as denoting his location as at that time men were often described as BNAF when they were in Italy. It is an interchangeable acronym with CMF (Central Mediterranean Force) and AAI (Allied Armies Italy). Your 3 Training Corps from the 1985 document is more likely Number 3 Transit Camp in the context of an impending U.K. posting. 8.RAC Depot/UK 7.1.45 Would that mean Bovington? It is also the same date 3rd Hussars left Italy for the Middle East. No direct knowledge but I’d say it was likely. Initially a paper posting as he would’ve likely had 28 days leave on arrival in U.K. There may be a further intermediate home unit posting missing from the Tracer Card before he was posted to BAOR? 4 months at The Depot seems to be a longer period than usual unless he was on the staff? 9. 2ARU X I v a /21 AG 9.6.45 Does ARU mean Armoured Reinforcement Unit? What category is XIva? I assume 21 AG is 21 Army Group As I said above the X list appears to have been expanded (and subsets added) post war. I’d say it denotes his posting to 2 ARU (can’t confirm that acronym) but 21 AG is as you assume. 10. XII/ BAOR & X2 BAOR. Is this some sort of detachment away from BAOR as he went back to the UK for some courses during his posting to 5 RTR? No knowledge. Possibly a period of sickness? 11. RAC ??? 23/52 17.2.52 Y6 Is this a transfer to a Reserve List? Men were posted to the Y list if they were absent from their unit for over 21 days (hospital, courses etc) so as he would’ve had a lengthy period of terminal leave entitlement prior to his final discharge he has been posted to the Y list. Perhaps the Y list was also refined post war so Y6 denoted pre discharge leave? It may be clear to you from his B108 Record of service book whether he signed on for 21 years as his 12 year initial commitment came to an end? It appears he completed his service after less than 14 years so he may have gone on to subsequently elect to terminate his engagement. Post discharge from the regular forces he would’ve been posted to Class Z Army Reserve (same as conscripts demobilised post WW2 ) so he could be easily recalled if hostilities recommenced (Class Z men recalled for Korea & Suez). He would automatically be removed from Class Z reserve on attaining 45 years of age. I understand that Class Z reserve was finally disbanded in the early 1960’s. Hope the above is of assistance. Steve
Jim In case you haven't received notification, I responded to you via private message, although I now see Tullybrone has since replied as well expanding on parts I didn't cover. Steve a.k.a. sjw8
Steve & Steve a.k.a. sjw8, Thank you so much for the incredible amount of useful information. It is just so amazing to be able to come from a Certificate of Service booklet to this level of knowledge about my father and so much of it has come from this Forum. I really appreciate the time and effort you have made to help with my research. It is so good to get someone else to look at the facts and come up with answers. It is easy to get so engrossed in a project that the obvious can be missed. I take your advice about getting copies of his Service Record from Glasgow. It is such a recurring theme on this forum and I accept that they will provide so much more information. It is not easy for me living overseas and I have tried unsuccessfully for a special case. I look forward to the day when we are able to make online money transfers to them. Jitter Party & davidbfpo, thank you also for your most valuable input and I appreciate it. All the best and keep up the good work. Cheers, Jim
