1st (Motor) Grenadier Guards Universal Carrier markings

Hi all

Can you help with this picture of Carriers of the 1st (Motor) Grenadier Guards, 5th Guards Armoured Brigade, Guards Armoured Division, crossing 'Euston Bridge' as they deploy for Operation 'Goodwood', Normandy 18 July 1944. © IWM (B 7526)???

I’ve been led to believe its a red border on the tac sign but I’m not convinced, and that the number is 1203. What does the 1203 denote (if it is indeed that number)

Seeing as the 1st Btn GG were a motorised infantry battalion I think the tactical signs if used would be a triangle for A company and this would be green? What does the #2 denote in the triangle?

What is the triangle on the side…maybe the same tac sign painted out?


Cheers

Martyn

 

good day smuge.today.09:25am.re:1st (motor)grenadier guards universal carrier markings.i don't know what the markings are,but if you contact D.B.F.you will be talking to a grenadier guard historian and you will get the information you are loking for,good luck in your search.regards bernard85

 

Smudge


Any armoured unit displayed their home - looks like this carrier belonged to the 2nd Troop - " A " squadron

Cheers

 

Hi guys

Thanks for the replies.

Tamiya reckon it’s a red border in their Universal Carrier kit but I’m not convinced.

Seeing as the 1st Btn GG were a motorised infantry battalion I think the tactical signs if used would be a triangle for A/1 company (Kings Co?) and this would be green? This makes sense in a mixed armour/infantry brigade surely the motorised infantry element would use a different colour to the armoured elements which therefore excludes red, yellow or blue???

See here http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishMotorBattalion.html They say...'Within an Armoured Division the Motor Battalion was the 4th Regiment of the first Brigade, this meant a red square with a white 54 was the Serial Number. Green tactical marks could be use to identify the companies of the battalion'

Check half way down here http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=245057 Mark Davies post of 12 Oct 2011 says 5th Guards Armoured Brigade:
2nd (Armoured) Bn, Grenadier Guards – red signs & 51 AoS serial on red flash
1st (Armoured) Bn, Coldstream Guards – yellow signs & 52 AoS serial on red flash
2nd (Armoured) Bn, Irish Guards – blue signs & 53 AoS serial on red flash
1st (Motor) Bn, Grenadier Guards – green signs & 54 AoS serial on red flash

DBF…Would you agree with this?

I am leaning towards green

Cheers

Smudge

 

I have not seen mention of Motor Battalions in 21 Army Group with any but green tactical markings. Diamond for HQ, A Company triangle, B Company square, C Company circle.

Mike

 

Cheers Mike

So the triangular border is green for a Motorised Btn, in this case Kings Co, 1 GG?

Smudge

 

Smudge,

I have always thought so. There are always exceptions but the Guards do things properly. We are told that 1 Grenadier Guards could not be an armoured regiment because Kings Company were all over 6 foot (unusual in those days) and would not fit into tanks.

The number under the Arm of Service sign seems to be shipping number. These have no significance for the unit but are for Movement Control staff. This one seems very neat but they were not permanent.

Mike.

 

Cheers Mike

I have to wonder about that triangle on the side. A tac signs painted over perhaps?

Thanks a lot for the help

Smudge

 

Hello everybody,

I had first also tentatively identified the Carriers in IWM B7526 here (note that one can now zoom on all online photos):
THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944 | Imperial War Museums

as belonging to 2 Motor Platoon, because of the '2' inside the (green) triangle (denoting 1 Motor Coy), but having read the WE by Trux here:
MOTOR BATTALION and MACHINE GUN UNITS

and also having seen this doc from the GG History, kindly provided by dbf in her Post #3 above:
1st (Motor) Grenadier Guards Universal Carrier markings


I now realise that a Motor Platoon was not supposed to include any Carrier at all.

Does this mean that these Carriers belong to the Scout Platoon, and if so, that the '2' denotes its 2nd Section?


Second question: about the number '1203' under the AoS mark (clearly visible if one zooms on the photo on the IWM website), Trux thinks it might be the shipping number (I supose he means Unit Mobilisation Serial Number). I regrettably do not what the MSN for the GG was, does anyone?

If we cannot find a doc to confirm it, another way would be to find this same number on another GG vehicle. Unfortunately photos showing GG vehs are quite rare.

If this is not the MSN for the GG, I venture that it might be a sort of Call Sign for the individual vehicle, possibly '1' for '1 Motor Coy, '2' (or '20') for '2 Sec Scout Pl', and '03' (or '3') for '3rd Carrier in 2 Sec Scout Pl'?

Looking forward to your thoughts on these two questions.

Michel

 

Hi,
The Serial Numbers for the Grenadier Guards Battalions in May 1944 are :

1 (Motor Bn) - 1203

3 Bn - 1104

5 Bn - 31685

6 (Motor Bn) - 32029

Regards

Danny

 

Michel

1203 was indeed the mobilisation serial number for 1 Gren Gds (Motor Bn) - this is confirmed from the official listing.......

Dave

 

Excellent! Thank you for your fast responses, this solves one of my two questions, and shows that Trux was right once again and that my wild theory about a call sign was just that - far out

Michel

 

Answering (partly) my first question above, these are most probably Carriers from one of the three Sections in the Scout Platoon, because these were the only ones in a Motor Battalion supposed to be issued with 4" smoke discharchers, quite prominent on the first two Carriers on the photo, on the top nearside corner.

The '2' should therefore be the Section number within the Scout Platoon, but the problem is that both Carriers on the photos show this '2', and both have a radio aerial, whereas only the first Carrier in a Scout Section was to have a radio (No.19 W/T Set).

Michel

Edit:
1. I'm now not quite so certain that the second Carrier also sports a '2' - the photo is not clear enough in that respect
2. The dark background behind the '2' (inside of the triangle) is reminiscent of the same dark filling of Recce Bns Sqaudron symbols in some Armoured Divisions, and might mean a Scout unit by analogy with the Recce unit?