1940 staff vehicle - A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

Discussion in '1940' started by 4/7 RDG, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    Here goes, we'll see if this works. Here are some pics of my heavy utility as it arrived, of it back in one piece before going to Dunkirk in May 2010, two shots showing the original british markings on the doors and one of the new headlining inside.
     

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    von Poop likes this.
  2. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    Any one got any idea what the C 24 stood for?
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Hello Alex, it's nice to have another early vehicle enthusiast on the forum. Your Humber looked very good in Dunkirk last year.

    What a shame that the wings had no reclaimable markings. The markings on the doors are obviously not in a recognised place for an AoS sign so it is likely to be an individual vehicle number within a unit. Was the red colour a later overpainting ?

    The quantity of this type of vehicle with a lower formation was so few that I can only imagine this was a GHQ vehicle if the number '24' related to the number of cars on the establishment.
     
  4. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Amazed and impressed by how long the French kept vehicles in use . I can understand them using ww2 GMC 'jimmies' as fire engines that have come out of storage possibly with mimimal miles . But Humbers that have seen 5 years of war , and what was it like getting spares for one in France in the 1970s!
    Or was that 500.000 tons of BEF stores still about :)
    Have you any pics of it in fire use Alex ?
    Craig
     
  5. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    I only have one pic of it in fire engine guise, taken in the 1970's by the looks of it. It was with a small village fire brigade in a place called Le Muy in Normandy near Vernon. The C24 was over the british green but under all the other layers of paint, I was lucky to find it's cansus number still visible in the old pic but the wings had already been blasted and primed twenty years before I bought the car so the markings, if there ever were any, were long gone.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Post war matadors, according to Pat Ware in 'Tugs of War':
    "Production of WW2 'Matador' finished at the end of 1945 - for students of Matador minutiae, AEC tells us that it was actually at 2.45PM on 5 November in 1945"

    "The War Office must also have retained it's high opinion of the Matador into the Fifties, for between 1953 & 1959, when deliveries of the new FVRDE-designed vehicles were not going according to plan, and despite the introduction of the more modern Militant, a further batch of 1800 Matador Chassis was purchased. These vehicles differed only in detail from their WW2 predecessors, and once again were bodied as artillery tractors"

    There's also a reference to an "updated Mk.II Matador" mentioned in a '58 AEC brochure - essentially a 4X4 Militant, not taken up by the British army.

    Which is all off the Humber subject, but there you go.
    Great pictures Alex.

    ~A
     
  7. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    My Humber before restoration but seveal years after retirement from the Le Muy fire brigade. This is the photo that revealed it's war time identity when enlarged enough.
     

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  8. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Good pic , nice to see it's on another British truck.:)
     
  9. lesfreathy

    lesfreathy Member

    these two photos will be of interest, she carries both civilian RHX 158 and army M387111 numbers
    cheers
    Les
     

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  10. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Any one got any idea what the C 24 stood for?

    While hunting through the archives at Kew I came across a list of vehicles of the HQ of 5 Division. It is a 'Provisional March Grouping' for some move to a new location. Each vehicle has a code ranging from A.5. to E.34. I don't think these are movement serials.

    It is possible that the C24 on the Humber is such a code although not from HQ 5 Division as C.24. is a 30 cwt lorry in this list.

    Andrew
     
  11. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    Hi Andrew, It could be, I don't know. I would be unlikely to be painted on quite so neatly. My experience was that movement numbers were chalked on the door for each move sothey could be changed as needed. I've attached a pic or the old girl since we painted the original numbers back on. Just wish we knew what the rest should be. Alex.
     

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  12. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Hi Andrew, It could be, I don't know. I would be unlikely to be painted on quite so neatly. My experience was that movement numbers were chalked on the door for each move sothey could be changed as needed. I've attached a pic or the old girl since we painted the original numbers back on. Just wish we knew what the rest should be. Alex.
    Alex

    You are probably right. There is nothing in the doc that says these are other than numbers assigned for the particular move. Of course your 'C.24' number is probably later than my BEF period. Is the car, having a mesh grill, post Dunkirk? I will keep an eye open for new information.

    Don't be too concerned about not having the numbers - you have the vehicle!

    Andrew
     
  13. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    Hi Andrew,

    The C24 is definately BEF period, as I said in my previous post, this car was left behind in France in 1940 and used by the kriegsmarine untill it's recapture in 1944 at Vernon in Normandy. When we stripped the paint the C24 was on the original british green under the German paint. It cannot be anything else other than a BEF marking.

    I have owned many wartime vehicles over the years and it is very unusual to have even part of a "B" vehicle's history. We know most of the history of this one so it has become a bit of a challenge to keep trying to get as much as we can.

    We can tell from the chassis number that this was an October/November 1939 car and it has it's original early (38/39) grill shell with the military mesh insert just as it should be on the utility and the 8CWT Pickup. The later cars were all saloons or tourers as the utility and pickup were replaced by the 4X4 model. These later cars had a totally different grill shell and insert much more like the post war civilian one.....and I do know this for sure as I own two of them, a saloon and a tourer.
     
  14. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Hi All,

    Thanks Andrew, I'll give it a try, and yes Craig that's my Humber back in 2010 and I'm the grumpy bugger in the Tam with my back to the camera. The car is a bit more finished inside now and also it has it's original census number back on it now as the really nice helpfull man who I bought it from, found an old pic of it in fire brigade red taken back in the 1970's that is clear enough to show the original number under the red paint on the bonnet.

    It's number was M4110896. Also when we stripped the paint off the doors and tailgate we found the marking C 24 on the original British army green and under the Km dark blue paint.

    I live in hope the that one day we might know who she was with in thos dark days back in 1939-40....maybe we'll find a picture...I hope!

    I'll try and get some pictures of it posted in the next day or two.

    All the best, Alex.

    Alex,

    Have you seen this picture? Not your Humber, but it looks like a sister car...

    [​IMG]

    And here's another Humber:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  15. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott Junior Member

    Hi, Yes, that is a lovely picture...lets hope those kids survived the war. I have a few pictures of heavy utilities out of the same number series. I'd love to find one of my car but as yet no luck. I keep trying. I'm going back to France in it next week.
     
  16. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Hi Alex,

    As a MV enthusiast you may have read about the mysterious "DME circulars". There were some for sale on eBay some time ago, and this is one of the DME circulars for the Humber Heavy Utility:

    [​IMG]

    Sorry, haven't got the original, only this eBay scan...

    Jan
     
  17. Austin k2y

    Austin k2y Member

    [QUOTEH="lesfreathy, post: 376538, member: 9939"]these two photos will be of interest, she carries both civilian RHX 158 and army M387111 numbers
    cheers
    Les[/QUOTE]
    Hi
    just a point RHX --Is a government series number
    Regs
    Rupert
     

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