Thanks for that, Yet another example of a tow hitch fitted, and it seems to be the same as others of this era. I have a photo sent to me by Nigel Watson, it is from the same series of the carrier convoy going through a vilage street, only this one taken from the rear....HMC 66, the rearmost carrier has the same tow hitch, AoS 15, 15 on red could be one of at least three infantry battalions, but if the photo of the convoy going forwards is the same ??? I think they have the cross keys formation sign....but 15 on red is not in the list. It might be the 1st Corps white spearhead......but now my brain is beginning to hurt !!!!! The "chassis" off to the side looks nothing like any gun carriage I have seen, but may not be British, I cannot see any spring fittings either, BUT there appears to be at least three U bolt fittings around the chassis, the upper parts look as if they may have been fittings for a floor...in which case it would be totally burnt, any wooden parts have certainly gone. George.
'15' on red was 1 Border's AoS during their time with 2nd Division (they were exchanged with 2/8 Lancs Fusiliers early in May). I believe that there are other images of the same exercise captioned as the Carrier Platoon of 1st Battalion, Border Regt. I wonder if this hook arrangement could be related to BEF units helping on farms ?
'15' on red was 1 Border's AoS during their time with 2nd Division (they were exchanged with 2/8 Lancs Fusiliers early in May). I believe that there are other images of the same exercise captioned as the Carrier Platoon of 1st Battalion, Border Regt. I wonder if this hook arrangement could be related to BEF units helping on farms ? I agree. IWM has a few pictures of this unit. The town is Orchies and the timing is 13th October or thereabouts. Andrew
Agreed Rich. George Moore would be interested in this one because it looks like it has an improvised towing hook. That is unusual. Is it available on ebay Peter? Andrew Hi Andrew, not on Ebay, comes from an album. Peter
'15' on red was 1 Border's AoS during their time with 2nd Division (they were exchanged with 2/8 Lancs Fusiliers early in May). I believe that there are other images of the same exercise captioned as the Carrier Platoon of 1st Battalion, Border Regt. I wonder if this hook arrangement could be related to BEF units helping on farms ? Thats a possibility, there are photo's of carriers being used to plough....though I cannot say if they show the attachment in any detail. Initial thoughts were for towing the smaller A/T guns, though I have yet to see a carrier towing a gun or even a trailer during this period. Some MkI and MkII carriers were fitted with towing attachments, prior to the standard "Stacey" towing attachment. Used for towing the 6pdr. Would they have gone to the trouble of making an attachment for agricultural purposes ??? So far the photo's of them show they were of a standard shape, angle iron brackets......they were certainly designed and fitted with some purpose in mind though. George.
Thats a possibility, there are photo's of carriers being used to plough....though I cannot say if they show the attachment in any detail. Initial thoughts were for towing the smaller A/T guns, though I have yet to see a carrier towing a gun or even a trailer during this period. Some MkI and MkII carriers were fitted with towing attachments, prior to the standard "Stacey" towing attachment. Used for towing the 6pdr. Would they have gone to the trouble of making an attachment for agricultural purposes ??? So far the photo's of them show they were of a standard shape, angle iron brackets......they were certainly designed and fitted with some purpose in mind though. George. Here is a farm picture. I am not sure where it came from. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=101412&stc=1&d=1362833479 Andrew
The agricultural suggestion was probably wide of the mark, but whenever I see welded angle iron, I think of farmers...The date of mid-October 1939 would be too early for that sort of usage. I see also in Andrew's latest post that they seem to have been horse-drawn ploughs chained to the existing shackles. It would seem unlikely to me that the carrier platoon would have been utilised to tow the 25mm A/tk guns which were not very rugged in the wheel department anyway. The 2 Div A/tk Coys. appear to have received their Bedford portees alongside these guns (although on some ground the carrier could access positions which the 2wd Bedford could not). I don't have a full copy of the 2 Div ADOS diary but there may be some clues. I copied some entries about mods to the Bedford portees from there. Does Drew have any of the following ? WO 167/214 - 2 Div ADOS WO 167/352 - 4 Bde HQ WO 167/353 - 4 Bde A/T Coy (an off-chance) WO 167/713 - 1 Border Regt.
These towing assemblies were clearly in use prior to 13th October and perhaps less likely to be mentioned later on. If there is any mention of the carriers / carrier platoons doing any sort of towing or being fitted with special parts between commencement of the diaries and mid-October, it might point us in the direction. I do know that 2 Div ADOS has some pretty unintelligible handwriting though.
The agricultural suggestion was probably wide of the mark, but whenever I see welded angle iron, I think of farmers...The date of mid-October 1939 would be too early for that sort of usage. I see also in Andrew's latest post that they seem to have been horse-drawn ploughs chained to the existing shackles. It would seem unlikely to me that the carrier platoon would have been utilised to tow the 25mm A/tk guns which were not very rugged in the wheel department anyway. The 2 Div A/tk Coys. appear to have received their Bedford portees alongside these guns (although on some ground the carrier could access positions which the 2wd Bedford could not). I don't have a full copy of the 2 Div ADOS diary but there may be some clues. I copied some entries about mods to the Bedford portees from there. Does Drew have any of the following ? WO 167/214 - 2 Div ADOS WO 167/352 - 4 Bde HQ WO 167/353 - 4 Bde A/T Coy (an off-chance) WO 167/713 - 1 Border Regt. The 25mm was a bit fragile, so too the 2pdr, the reason they were carried portee in the desert as the "shook themselves to pieces" according to one book I read. But they may have been used for towing the 2pdr. Though there is evidence of some (?) Lloyd carriers with the BEF, they could be used for towing 2pdrs, Bovington has stowage diagrams for gun towing and limber. But most if not all 2pdrs would have been towed by dragon MkII...at least those in the artillery A/T units The IWM has some photo's of the carriers in France, ploughing during the "phoney war" period. I believe there is also a Pathe News sequence. Strange however only one carrier seems to be fitted, is there any evidence at all on the possibility of a trailer, I have seen no evidence of any at all. The bren would also need to have stowage for ammunition too, not much room for that either. Can it be concluded that Infantry A/T platoons were issued with Boyes, and Artillery A/T units 2pdrs ????? A conundrum wrapped in an enigma. George.
WO 167/214 - 2 Div ADOS WO 167/352 - 4 Bde HQ WO 167/353 - 4 Bde A/T Coy (an off-chance) WO 167/713 - 1 Border Regt. Nowt stands out from any of the above and you was right about the 2 Div ADOS file.
Saw these on eBay Orig Foto Gefangene Engländer Kampfeinsatz 6.Panzer-Div Bergues/ Dünkirchen | eBay Orig Foto Gefangene Engländer +Posten Kampfeinsatz 6.Panzer-Div Bergues | eBay I'm wondering if the units are known? Peter
George M Ref Carriers fm 1 Borders in #365 - can you read the veh number plates ? Is the first one HMC 66 ? What are the others ? Roddy
George M Ref Carriers fm 1 Borders in #365 - can you read the veh number plates ? Is the first one HMC 66 ? What are the others ? Roddy I enlarged as much as pos, still a bit murky, but I get: HMC 66 last in column HMH 563 HMH 546 HMH 547 Unusual to have consecutive numbers in line but not impossible. My list ov VRN numbers shows: HMC 66 Carrier MG No2 converted to Bren, so an early one T 3717 HMH 563 Bren No2 MkI T3010 HMH 546 " T 2993 HMH 547 " T 2994 Best I can do. George.
I mostly just visit to read posts these days rather than input..But I always make a b line for this thread...Well done all posters here...Drew has a passion and it shows...Superb.
George - Problem...I have HMC 546 as T-4193, a Lt Tk Mk VIB, HMC 547 as T-4194 and HMC 563 as T-4210 - also T]Lt Tks... Great if I am proved wrong but really not sure...any ideas ? Roddy
Roddy - I think George wrote HMH.... this may turn out to be less Light Tank Mk VI than HMC? Best, NICK HMH seems a common prefix on carriers. The list I had referred to was that published giving VRN and census numbers. George.
