17th Field Company Royal Engineers

Michel!!!

I can not find a reference in Army or Navy docs to 40th LCT Flotilla loading at Gosport or Stokes Bay. The War Diary Staffordshire Yeomanry tells us on 03June: "D Day vehicles and personnel in Newhaven..." . That is 40th LCT Flotilla, including LTIN 327, apparently loaded in Newhaven. Hence those 17 men from 17 Fd Coy loaded there as well....

Lieutenant R.W.W. Bullock, Troop Leader, 2 Troop,A Squadron, Westminster Dragoons who embarked with the Staffies, recollected: "Our concentration area was at Bolney on the A23 near Haywards Heath. We tested the waterproofing of our vehicles in a water tank at Pease Pottage, a few miles up the road and embarked at Newhaven..."

To hell with your theories I'm leaning back towards Lt Crush on LTIN 327!

Regards
Old Farty

 

Arty,

Just back from a nice terrace dinner with "upcountry" old friends taking advantage of this tourist-free period to visit Paris.

You're quite right!

My reference for 40 Flotilla's LCT LTIN 320-330 of Group 12 loading at Gosport & Stokes Bay is the 3 Br Inf Div Landing Table of March 1944. Although the same landing table states that Group 11's LCI(L) LTIN 311-319 were also to load at Gosport & Stokes Bay, the ONEAST Naval and Military Loading Plan of 21 May (which does not include Newhaven) does not mention them, whereas the Sailing Timetable specifies that the 9 LCI(L) in Convoy S10 (aka (Sailing) Group S10, not to be confused with (Assault) Group 10) were berthed in Area Newhaven. These are without any doubt the LCI(L) of (Assault) Group 11 (LTIN 311-319). I concluded that these LCI(L) were indeed loaded at Newhaven.
However, I did not complete the correlation between Convoys and Groups, nor did I check whether Group 12 were listed in the Naval and Military Loading Plan, but instead remained with the obviously obsolete mention in the March Landing Table. Having now checked, Group 12 is also missing from the Naval & Mil Loading Plan, and is also part (along with the 18 LCT of Group 15, LTIN 337-348 & 351-356 carrying part of 17 Fd Coy's vehicles) of Convoy S10 berthed in Newhaven, so yes, Group 12 must have loaded in Newhaven as well.

I think my brain needs some rest...

Michel

 

Hello Peter,

Responding to your Post #98 first…

Notwithstanding the fact that the R.E. guys could be called upon to perform all manner of engineering tasks, I’m thinking that the sections with the respective Infantry Battalions of 185 Bde were principally there for route clearance. That is, probably not assault demolition teams ie. the difference is that the R.E. assault demolition teams attached to 8 Bde were attacking known fixed defences.

I already have an extract from the KSLI war diary for the period 03-06June. The men of 17 Fd Coy don’t get a mention. I can forward it to you if you'd like. However, if indeed you get hold of a copy of KSLI’s War Diary you’d be better off looking in May 1944 ie. that is where the Operation Order for D-Day is possibly lurking. The KSLI Op Order might provide some info.

I only have extracts from “Royal Engineers Battlefield Tour 1: Normandy to the Seine” so I don’t know if that will help.

On the subject of 2 platoons transport, it would seem likely that some of it landed with Group 15 at H+240 eg. the M14 onboard LTIN 348 is a distinct possibility.

Responding to your Post #99...

The guttered shell of Chateau Beuville was demolished. By 1950 a large industrial/farming building was built on the site – however the gateway was still in place. Since then modern private houses have built on the site – and the gateway gone to Château de Vendeuvre. About the only original gateway that remains is the “Porte de Parc” on the intersection of the nearby D141 (with thanks to Google Maps!).

Responding to your Post #100

Feel free to post a scan of the pic with carrier T8703…

Regards
Arty

 

Hello Michel,

Yes indeed, those nice terrace dinners in tourist free Paris are clearly hard work. Have a nice lie down perhaps.

Arty

 

Morning!

D-day research is beginning to looked and feel like my job - research - hypothesis - test - rude word - further research - new hypothesis and so on. Still work has kept me interested for 40 years so there’s hope!

@ Arty

I am not sure the “Squadron Leader” liberated by 17 FC RE was Flight Lieutenant Gordon Herbert Thring or Flying Officer Gerard Frazer McMahon. I make that statement fully aware of my amateur-status in game!

My own follow-up research on this point shows that on the night of June 5 1944 (flying from RAF Fairford) both of those officers were in a Short Stirling that was shot down. They were taken prisoner. All good thus far (the stories match-up well) but now they diverge: Four days after his own capture (so on or around the 9th June) McMahon marched his prisoners, now numbering 62, to the Allied lines and handed them over to the Canadian Army.

So wrong army, different day and no mention of the British soldiers in a captured Germany truck.

My brother, before his untimely death, told me the “Squadron Leader” had contacted him. I am going to ask my sister-in-law and nephew if he had any papers from the “Squadron Leader”.

Sapper Paterson (who drove the captured truck), in his personal diary (which I will scan and post) talks about prisoners walking behind the truck (on the way back to ST AUBIN D’ARQUENAY). Stating the event took place on the morning of the 7th June. Later Sapper Paterson talks about seeing a crashed RAF bomber near BEUVILLE.

Independently Sapper Churchill in his personal diary (again I will scan this and post it) talks about 12 prisoners some walking (to ST AUBIN D’ARQUENAY) behind the captured truck on the morning of the 7th June. I have no idea where Sapper Churchill was when he viewed the incident (or even if he did ...... he could just be recounting something that became well know throughout 2 Platoon by its subsequent retelling).

Both personal diaries were written after the war and I am just beginning to realise that some of the recollections may be a little “fragile”.

Best Peter

PS off today so will post a few more photos and start that thread on Percy Hobart and Sandhurst after the War that Mark suggested.

 

Just posted the PH thread ...... As I was naming all the REs in the photo I saw it was taken at "Gibraltar Barracks, Aldershot" NOT Sandhurst as I had thought. Sorry for my failing memory.

 

Arty,

Thanks again for all this.

Your reply to post #98. There was a degree of "duplication" in the tasks allocated to the REs hence why I opted for "close" integration with KSLIs: -

• 10 Crabs - Note REs but route clearance;
• 2 platoons from 253 FC RE to "open and maintain one single and one double way route forward to 185 Inf Bde close behind the advance" according to the Div Engineer plan reproduced in "RE Battlefield 1".
• 2 platoon 17 FC RE

Reply to Post #99. I have a "current" picture of a building that looks remarkably like the shell of the CdB in that wartime photo you posted. And mine was taken in or around that area because I WAS FOLLOWING THE APPROXIMATE ROUTE OF 185 Bde on D-DAY; I'll scan and post. Major gaff if I've got that wrong (which I probably have). Interesting that the patches on the arms of the troops in "your copy" had been obliterated but in "my copy" hadn't.

Best Peter

 

These pictures after the war so I'd guess sometime after 1946 (when he'd left Aldershot). He was in the TA till 1949/50 I think.

Dad not in the first two (491 and 492) but he kept them all these years so there must be some connect.

Would love to hear if anybody recognises any faces in the pictures.

Best Peter

 

To continue the 8th July 1944 theme, I have attached the recommendation for Military Medal awarded to 1867395 Cpl Leslie Gordon Cushing.

 

Hello Peter,

Regarding the "Squadron Leader" with the German prisoners in the Beuville area I mentioned back in Post #92 that there has been quite a number of versions of F/L Thring's (& McMahon's) escapades written in the last 70 odd years. I suggested most were fairy tales. That was probably polite; I am of the distinct impression that the story has been butchered so much it's now a bloody mess! This is an event that has intrigued me for years. I've now dug out information from at least eight different sources on this, including RAF records from the archives.

The story you've ended up with is that a RAF chap, McMahon, handed over his 62 captives to some Canadian troops at some unconfirmed locality.

The story I've ended up with is that a Canadian pilot and his RAF/RNZAF crewmates including McMahon, handed over their 61 captives to British troops at Beuville. Which happens to be the same location where some vets of 17 Fd Coy reported encountering a "Squadron Leader" with his former captors.

Something fishy here, methinks.

Meanwhile, I'm now pondering the fact that you might having been at the locality, not of Chateau Beuville, but that of the nearby Chateau Bieville. The Chateau Bieville also ended up gutted after the war but has since been rebuilt in a spectacular fashion. What's more, I've got a postwar view of the church in Beuville - which shows some damage. Whereas, as for the church in Bieville someone really did a job on it!

Regards
Arty

 

Arty

so sorry looks like I was shouting earlier - not intended - that was a mistake. Don’t remember seeIng the caps when I typed that or indeed having caps lock on

Best Peter

 

This site and d-day research should carry health warnings: “WARNING: These things are as addictive as crack cocaine so you “enter” at you peril!”

I’ve reread the covering letter from Sapper Paterson to my Dad (Eddie) in 2001 and now find it a tad ambiguous where as before Arty’s comments I was so sure what it said

I now see that it quite possibly meant the Chateau du BEUVILLE wasn’t there in 2001 (when Paterson visited) so it follows that it wouldn’t have been there when I visited more than 10 years later: “I looked in at the village of BEUVILLE, where the Chateau was and the field opposite the gateway that ran up to the wood where the tanks were parked is now built up with new houses up to Norfolk House Farm and across to the wood.”

Previously I took this to mean that only the “the field opposite the gateway that ran up to the wood where the tanks were parked” was built-up with new houses up to “Norfolk House Farm and across to the wood.” But the Chateau still stood.

However, following Arty’s comments I now accept that it probably meant that the grounds of the Chateau had also been built upon (just as Arty said).

Damn the jigsaw is hard

But where on Earth was I when I visited? What Chateau did I photograph; the resemblance of “my Chateau” with the picture posted by Arty is incredible. However, I accepted that perhaps I wanted to see what I saw so saw it!

I will post my “then and now” pictures at the weekend.

Best Peter

 

Hello Peter,

Two posts coming up here for you.

Back to those elusive boys in blue first. I'd really really like to know the name of that "Squadron Leader". Meanwhile...

The following technical details are extracted from 620 Sqn RAF’s Operations Record Book (ie. from the UK National Archives. The ORB was the RAF equivalent of the Army Diary – however it was more complex in that was two documents being the Record and the Summary, plus appendices). The added narrative is from my research via another 7 or so sources….

05Jun44 2345 hrs Stirling LJ849 ‘E’ is one of 23 a/c of the Squadron that takes off from RAF Fairford on Operation Tonga. All of the landing zones for Operation Tonga were east of the Caen Canal.

Crew of LJ849:
Thring (RCAF)
Price
Braathen
Buchan
Burgess (RNZAF)
McMahon

Stirling LJ849 ‘E’ is logged as returning at 0315 hrs ie. before dawn on 06June. 3 aircraft of 620 Sqn failed to return (EF295 of Squadron Leader PETTIT OBE DFC, EF268 of Pilot Officer CASKEY, EJ116 of Flight Sergeant BARTON) and 4 were damaged.

06Jun44 1930 hrs Stirling LJ849 ‘E’ was one of 18 a/c of the Squadron that takes off from RAF Fairford on Operation Mallard. The Squadron was towing Horsa gliders carrying 211 Battery RA to Landing Zone W – situated on the west side of the Caen Canal, adjacent St Aubin d’Arquenay.

The Crew of LJ849 'E' for the evening operation was the same as the flight on the night before:
Thring (RCAF)
Price
Braathen
Buchan
Burgess (RNZAF)
McMahon

Stirling LJ849 'E' is recorded as “crash landed 2120” - it is clear it was hit by flak (incidentally 211 battery recorded being on the ground by 2130 hrs). Of note, after glider release the aircraft of 620 Sqn performed a 180 degree to the right ie. west to avoid running into the heavy concentration of flak over Caen. We have photographic and documentary proof of the inbound stream of aircraft that evening. Outbound, a Stirling was apparently 'accidentally' photographed from an LCI(L) stranded on the far right of Queen White Beach, whilst another (LJ855 ‘K’ of 299 Sqn) crashed into the sea adjacent vessels of Force S ie. off Queen beach.

Sqn Ldr Dave Gibb of 190 Squadron – also flying Stirlings from RAF Fairford - saw F/L Thrings Stirling go down, in his debrief on 06June he stated:

“Excellent shooting (tracer) from flak just inland on track coming out. Stirling Mk IV port outer on fire turned back inland from over sea and pranged at Plumetot (approx.), believed to be a/c ‘E’ or ‘L’.”

The inescapable conclusion is that when Stirling LJ849 ‘E’’ went down it was inland of the Sword assault area. So, F/O McMahon ended up inland from the Queen sector about 2120 on 06June. He was with his skipper, the Canadian, F/L Gordon Herbert Thring, plus the four other crew members. They were soon captured.

Then we have a collection of fairytales about what subsequently happened. These stories appear in various publications and online. It includes 'fascinating' crap about Typhoon strikes that probably didn't happen, German troops being described as a "hand-picked bunch of snipers", suggestions that the six airmen were "surrounded by about 200 soldiers" etc etc. It's all just confused shite. The reference to Canadian soldiers is just strange - was one of the boys in blue confused by the Mk3 helmets???

Back to something resembling reality - a verbatim extract from the 620 Sqn ORB Summary from June:

“Enemy ground opposition in the CAEN area was moderate and six aircraft were damaged by small arms A.A. fire from isolated pockets of resistance. One captained by F/L G.H. Thring crash landed in a field. He subsequently escaped, and he and the entire crew returned safely to the country a few days later….”

So according to the 620 Sqn Summary, McMahon was apparently on his way back to the UK by 09June.

But there’s more yet…Flying Officer Thomas Higgins also from 190 Sqn based at Fairford apparently kept a diary. On 09June he wrote:

“Listen to this! The crew which was shot down just in front of us the other day has returned to the Station…”

F/O Higgins continues with a story that sounds like it was told in the mess after 20 pints of ale. However, he continues with:

“Anyway, the Jerries got a bit fed up with the way the war was going and decided to let the aircrew boys take them prisoners – which they did. Two of the crew went out and found a British Tommy…”

Perhaps this was Cpl Bill Edwards and/or Pat Paterson 2 Pl 17 Fd Coy!

F/O Higgins 09June diary entry concludes with:

“It certainly must have been a funny sight; six aircrew types marching sixty-one Jerries down the road from the Caen area. They left the beach last night – arrived here today!”

Which clearly suggests McMahon & Co were already on their way home on the night of 08Jun44.

I should add that the source of the information from S/L Gibb & F/O Higgins is “Stirlings in Action with the Airborne Forces” by Dennis Williams.

And one last piece on this is related to the Kiwi Wireless Op onboard Stirling LJ849 ‘E’. The source of which is: “New Zealanders with the Royal Air Force (Vol. II) CHAPTER 13 — Transport and Special Duties”

“One New Zealand wireless operator, Flight Sergeant Burgess, who flew to Normandy on the evening of D Day, shared with his crew in an amazing series of adventures which culminated two days later with their hailing a surprised British soldier near Caen with the news that they had sixty prisoners for him….The prisoners were marched along with a retreating enemy detachment until dawn the following morning when, finding themselves in no-man's-land, the whole party took cover in a bombed chateau…. Then, after a night of more shelling and bombardment, the German commander asked that he and his men be taken prisoners, so Burgess and his navigator set off in search of British troops. Having made contact, the airmen lined up the Germans and marched them to a brigade headquarters where they were handed over….”


Arty

 

Peter,

The next post - which may help confirm where you have been wandering, has one or two pics of the Beuville - Bieville area.

1. A slice of the 25,000 scale map of the area - it is quite likely Lt Crush was carrying this map. At the top of the map is the gun position attacked by Z Coy KSLI on the afternoon of 06June. These were the 12.2cm 'Russian' howitzers that belonged to 2./ Panzer Artillery Regiment 155 - that is, the artillery regiment of 21 Panzer Division. These were "guns were blown up by an R.E. N.C.O., who though badly wounded, succeeded in rendering them all useless..." That is, probably an NCO from 2 Pl 17 Fd Coy.
2. A photo composite by me of the same area in 1947. Source was the magnifique IGN website.
3. A postcard view of Chateau Beuville pre war. Source was Delcamp.net.
4. You already have this ie. IWM B5767
5. An aerial photo showing the gutted Chateau Beuville Post War.
6. An aerial photo from 1950. The Chateau has gone, however the gateway is still in place. Source IGN.







And lastly

7. A screengrab from 27Aug20. Showing the completely redeveloped area. Source Google Maps.

 

Arty

Two outstanding posts.

Just a thought, have you checked at The National Archives for any crew debriefings following their return? SEE POST BELOW.

Mark

 

Arty,

Lovely stuff! So a tiny bit of the jigsaw in my Dad had all these years fits into the Thring (RCAF)/McMahon legend! And the truth becomes a little clearer.

I have asked my sister-in-law and nephew to see if they can find anything in my brother’s papers. He was in the RAF reserve and was a member of a number of sites like this one. Before he died he told me that the “Squadron Leader” had written to him. If we find anything I will share.

As to my wanderings in Normandy. I will retrace my steps with your information....... thanks again.

I will scan and post both personal diaries as I think members might enjoy them. My motivation is these brave men need to be remembered.

Totally addicted to this now . Thank goodness retirement is only a few years away

Best Peter

PS thanks for all the help and guidance.

 

Found it!

Thring's MI9 debrief.

 

A report of the capture of the German prisoners appears in the Jedburgh Gazette on the 7 July 1944.

 

And The Scotsman 30 June 1944

 

A little more.

BBC - WW2 People's War - D Day Operation - Gerry McMahon

Wing Commander Gerry McMahon

This next links to a photo of Thring and his crew.

Stirlings in Action with the Airborne Forces