144 Squadron July 1941 - April 1942

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Woodhead, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

  2. Woodhead

    Woodhead Junior Member

    Hi Marc

    Havent heard from Leslie yet but will send him what I have, including June ORB at Hemswell which has references to his father. Looking through the records I found that Leslie Cousins senior also flew to Wangerooge on 19 July 41, with a mine for sea area Yams. The operation was the first involving my father and I am sure you know also included your father. Strange all three sons are communicating after so long.

    Any chance of getting permission to use the photograph of Sgt Fraser in my research. My Dad never flew with him, but it would be appropriate to include his photograph with his loss details I have included on the Berlin operation. Do you still have my contact details?

    John
     
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  3. Leslie Cousins

    Leslie Cousins Junior Member

    Hi John

    I have emailed you directly and very much look forward to any info you can give me. I think you and Marc know far more about my father than his family does!

    Leslie
     
  4. Leslie Cousins

    Leslie Cousins Junior Member

    Hi Marc

    In the circumstances, what a poignant Postcard from Ivor Fraser to his mother! I see that she lived in Fetcham which is just down the road from where I live in Surrey. Would it be of interest if I had a drive over to see if I can find the house?

    Leslie
     
  5. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

    John and Leslie,

    Am away travelling at the moment (just spent a fun 90 minutes chatting with Spidge in Melbourne earlier today).

    John, I would need to get permission from Fraser's niece, I think. I'll try for that as soon as I return home. Yes, it's really terrific that we can all meet this way. I'm sure that our fathers would be astounded if they knew.

    Leslie, I think his niece lives close by, thanks.

    Marc
     
  6. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

    Very pleased to say that I met 2 weeks ago with Beverley Edwards (and her husband Mick) at the wonderful Bomber Command Memorial.

    Beverley is the niece of Dad's Air Gunner, Sgt Ivor Roderick FRASER, who was lost over Berlin on Sept 7/8, 1941 when their Hampden was hit by flak. Dad ordered the crew to bale out, and it was later surmised that Sgt Fraser's parachute had failed to open. He was just 19.

    It was truly a blessing to be able to discuss these sad events with Beverley, and to pass along my late father's belated but most sincere regrets.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/51877590@N02/8936205016/

    Marc
     
  7. T G Miskin

    T G Miskin New Member

    Hi there,

    Grandson of Sgt T G (Thomas George) Miskin here. My grandfather last flew on AE424 which didn't return from convoy ops on 5th Nov1941 as mentioned in earlier posts.

    Have spent a lot of time (along with my father) reading and re-reading the information presented on this forum and we really appreciate the amount of time and effort you all put into keeping the information available open to those who have an interest. It means a lot to those who never got to meet the ones who died.

    I am currently building a model of the Hampden bomber in the style of, or at least as close as I can get with available info, to the one TG Miskin last flew on. In all my research I've not been able to find the individual aircraft letter code that suffixes the PL wartime code.
    I know that even here, that info is sketchy at best, but I'd thought I'd ask.

    Failing that info coming to light, I'm going to mark the plane with "PL" then roundel obviously then "M" for Miskin as a personal touch.

    Any thoughts or help would be most appreciated.

    Regards

    Thomas George Miskin the Second
     
  8. Woodhead

    Woodhead Junior Member

    Hi Thomas

    144 Squadron rarely recorded aircraft recognition letters. I have looked in couple of books for AE424, but PL - ? is all you get. Using M gives it a personal touch. The letter M had been used by the squadron over the previous few months, on AD901 until lost in July 41. The letter passed to AE265 (I think) until lost in August 41. The letter will again have passed to a new aircraft received by the squadron. The first reference to AE424 is its arrival at North Luffenham in October 41. Im afraid it was not the only aircraft being delivered at this time.

    The loss card for AE424 will be held by the RAF Museum at Hendon. Call sign letters were not usually recorded, but you never know.

    Your father Michael Miskin contributed to my research with a photograph of your grand father while training prior to receiving his wings and Sgts stripes.

    Send me a Private Message with your email details and I will send you some spreads from my own research relating to the 5 November 41.

    John
     
  9. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

    Hi Thomas,

    Sadly, John is correct in that 144 Sqn records almost never noted the call letters of individual aircraft. :-(

    The one thing I can say for certain is that the call letter of AE424 was NOT "W". That was the call letter of my father's plane, AE122, which carried the code letters PL-W. I know this because my father performed a flawless belly-landing of this badly-damaged aircraft, carrying three injured crewmen, at Coningsby on Aug 7/41. One of the three injured crew, WOP/AG Sgt Douglas Wark, later commissioned a painting of their aircraft, and showed me the painting when I met him at his Oxfordshire home in 1988/89.

    I would say that "PL-M" is as good a guess as any.

    Best of luck in your research,

    Marc
     
  10. 49 HG 92

    49 HG 92 Junior Member

    This is an interesting thread; I wonder if anyone has a note of the particular aircraft serial / code and crew from 144 Sqn that landed at Christchurch on 2nd April 1941 after being unable to locate Brest. The aircraft landed with its bomb load, which had to be unloaded to allow it to return to base, at 17.30 hrs. (according to RAF Christchurch F540)
     
  11. Woodhead

    Woodhead Junior Member

    144 Squadron ORBs for April 41 available from Kew as Downloads online £3.30 a time.


    April 41 ORBs Kew

    AIR 27/981/7 Summary of Events covers April 41 Link to Summary http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8388898#imageViewerLink
    AIR 27/981/8 Record of Events covers April 41 Link to Events http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8388899#imageViewerLink


    April operations began on 1 April to Brest loosing Hampden X3129. This operation would tie in with your date and is recorded in the Summary ORB for April 41. Your crew although slightly late back to Hemswell should have recorded their report in April Record of Events (file listed above). It is unlikely that this was their first operation a daylight raid on Brest, a well defended target, was a highly dangerous operation for experienced Hampden crews, first ops were often mining ops off the Frisian Islands. Four 144 Squadron Hampdens were involved AD761, X3066, AD791, and X3129 This info I was able to pull together from the April Summary file/half hidden online.

    Unfortunately when looking on line at RofE for April the first listed op is for the 3/4 April, no mention of the 1 April Op is given, and therefore no debriefs, this occurs occasionally on a Recall. Harry Moyles book The Hampden File also does not record the operation but does record the loss of X3129 off Brest. On occasions reports were missed when a crew FTR from an op in the following few days. X3066 was lost 10/11 April, AD761 was lost on the 16/17 April, AD791 continued operations until December 41 however other crews were lost during April. I may be incorrect but the indications are no crews from the 1 April operation survived the month hence no crew entries for the 1 April Brest operation.

    Suggesting you pay for the April ORBs may not give you more information. The Events Records for April would give you the aircraft and complete crews flying during the month

    Good Luck, come back to the Forum if all this sounds double dutch, John
     
  12. 49 HG 92

    49 HG 92 Junior Member

    Many thanks Woodhead.

    I also noted from Harry Moyle's book that there were no ops on 1st April so a recall due to bad weather may seem to be the reason.

    From what you say it seems then that a crew that diverted to another base might not get debriefed, especially if the Sqn knew the mission was scrubbed and the crew had nothing to report except the weather!
     
  13. Gildas

    Gildas Junior Member

    Dear all,
    Just a note to let you know that I do know the precise crash sites in north west Brittany, France, of X3129 (near Bourg-Blanc) and AE225 (near Ploudalmézeau).

    I was very fortunate in 1997 to be able to meet with Sgt. James Ernest "Jim" WIGGALL, Radio Operator on board AE225 and drive him to his comrades graves, the crash site, the target... He passed away some years ago. I'm also in touch with a relative of Sgt.Albert Bertram COOPER. Thanks to Jim I have a picture of Canadian pilot F/L. Robert Benjamin BARR taken on his wedding day, but due to the numerous resaerch that has to be done in this area, never tried to look for relatives. The same for P/O. Peter Gordon ANDERSON and

    Some relatives of P/O. William C. HARTOP came last year but I unfortunately knew that later. Jim Wiggall was on this aborted raid

    I do have a few remain from both, some having been displayed several times. The bigest part of AE225 being a propeller blade, and for X3129 an engine. As precised sooner, I ignore the individual letters of this plane. Maybe one day a particular picture may give the answer...
    If the written version of the ORB summary above is correct, AE225 should have been in it, no ???

    Best wishes for Christmas and the New year
    Gildas
     
  14. Woodhead

    Woodhead Junior Member

    Hi Gildas, happy new year

    I have followed with interest, your own interest and thread on the loss of the two Hampdens near Brest. The first pre dates my fathers arrival with 144 Squadron at North Luffenham on the 19 July 41. Regards the second, as a new arrival, he hardly had chance to meet the crew of AE225. I only have the full ORBs and crew movements from July 41 to April 42.

    I do not know when Hampden AE225 joined the squadron, looking back through the ORBs to its first appearance on ops would give a reasonable joining date, its loss on the 24 July is recorded. Your certainty about Sgt Wiggall's involvement in the 1 April 41 op would suggest you have his log details.

    My father flew to Brest on a number of occasions during his tour on Hampdens. His most serious incident was not over the target. Taking off on 31 January 42 for Brest, from a wintery grass strip at NL he had engine failure on take off, having seen others during his time at NL loose their lives in such an incident, he and his crew and Hampden survived. With a full bomb load, fuel to get to Brest and back his Hampden slid across two snow covered fields though a hedge, illuminating the scene with magnesium flares torn from the aircraft. His log entry simply records All OK and location. The squadrons ORB ads little more. His flying and luck was such that although not repairable on site, his Hampden was repaired and passed to Coastal Command 5 months later.

    John
     
  15. Gildas

    Gildas Junior Member

    Hello John,
    Thanks for your answer. Very interesting to read ! That night when your father had in one way a lucky landing, one crew had less chance, and caught in search lights, they were shot down and perished in a wood at Plougastel, the one of Hampden AT149. We did locate the crash site, but I still never tried to contact any relative.

    Gildas
     
  16. Vincent K

    Vincent K New Member

    Hello

    My Grand mother, who lived in Kersaint, near Ploudalmezeau, was a witness of the crash of AE225 and the capture of the 2 crew members. She remembered very well how the Hampden looked to be circling, waiting for something. She also remembered how the Me109s intercepted AE225 and how ot was shot down (2 parachutes, the germans following their descent with sidecars) and how the injured pilot was brought to the local doc to stabilize him.

    Cheers

    Vincent
     
  17. Jon144raf

    Jon144raf New Member

    I was hoping to find more information on John Humphrey "bud" Dunn (my grandmother's brother). I've managed to find out some details, but nothing really specific as to what the circumstances of his death were. The date of death is recorded as dec 11th, 1941.
     
  18. Woodhead

    Woodhead Junior Member

    Hi

    Hope this is not too long winded, I would be interested if your own findings or conclusions differ.

    144 Squadron North Luffenham prepared a number of Hampdens for operations on the 11 December. Four, which included my father, pilot of AE395, were prepared for an afternoon take off at 16.45 hrs for Cologne, all had the standard four man crew, with them all safely returning. An earlier daylight bombing operation by a single Hampden, AD921 with a five man crew, had a take off time 12.20 hours for the Seaplane base on the Frisian island of Norderney and had returned 15.25 hours having had insufficient cloud cover to complete the operation. The squadron records the loss of AE353 but does not give details on its operation. Its 5 man crew indicates a daylight operation.

    Some online records I have seen suggest it was on the daylight bombing operation to Brest. Bomber Command lists no Hampdens
 on the operation to Brest and the squadron would not have sent an inexperienced crew to the most heavily defended port on the French coast. Bomber Command does record various mining operations with no references to locations. To add to the confusion Bomber Command does not
 list the Norderney operation, confirmed in the squadrons record, it is plausible AE353 also went to Norderney. Fifteen Hampdens were sent to Le Havre at the same time as the Cologne operation, the known loss position of AE353 off the Sussex coast makes Le Havre just across the Channel, a plausible target, but why a five man crew, with the clock changes during the war, night will have fallen over Le Havre. If lost returning from Nordeney they were near enough 200 miles off course. It’s not unknown, with an injured crew, damaged aircraft, its possible. The regular approach taken by the squadron with a new inexperienced crew was an introductory mining operation with a crew of four off the Frisians flown at night.

    Hampden AE353

    The Hampden had been with the squadron since August 41 and had completed 14 operations successfully with various crews.

    The crew - P/O C.B. Payne, KIA. 
P/O A.L. Smiley, RNZAF KIA. F/O A.J.B. Monk, RCAF KIA. Sgt C.E. Gailey, KIA. Sgt J.H. Dunn, RCAF KIA.

    The make up of the crew is unusual, the pilot, P/O C.B.Payne, P/O A.L.Smiley the navigator and Sgt Dunn wireless operator/ rear gunner had been with the squadron only five days having arrived together from 16 OTU on the 6 December. Although two were Officers it is likely their commissions were obtained through a Commissioning Board at the end of 16OTU training and not earned through operational experience. It may be wrong to intimate, but worth considering that Monk and Gailey volunteered to support an inexperienced crew on their first operation. F/O Monk was a navigator and Sgt Gailey a wireless operator both with operational experience under their belt. Sgt Gailey had been rested since AE311 crashed on landing on the 10 November, it was his first operation since returning. Both were friends of my father but had never formed part of his crew, which had remained the same since August. The Cologne trip was my fathers twenty-fifth operation and he was still only a sergeant.

    You will have to draw your own conclusions and put yourself in their position. The squadron records at this time were reasonably well kept, a mining operation would normally have been listed. The fact they were a five man crew would indicate they were a second Hampden on the daylight operation to Norderney. Unlike the more prudent AD921, their lack of experience and cloud cover, caught them out, taking either flak or fighter damage. Getting home with the expanse of the North Sea ahead of them probably did not look very inviting. Following the European coast west with the intention of a landing in southern England probably looked the better option, hence the loss position off Sussex.

    F/O Monk is listed on the Runnymede Memorial, P/O Payne, P/O Smiley and Sgt Dunn are buried in England, Sgt Gailey is buried in Dublin, Ireland.

    Sorry I can not be more definite.

    John
     
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  19. Gildas

    Gildas Junior Member

    Hi Vincent,
    Found your reply only today, Would be interested to learn some more. You can join me at gildassouAThotmail.com, replacing of course AT by @.
    Cheers
    Gildas
     
  20. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    re AE353

    Bomber Command interceptions and tactics report No. 155 records that the Brest operation 11/12 Dec 1941 was undertaken by No.3 group with no recorded losses due to enemy actions.

    No.5 Group Hampdens on this night were tasked with Koln, le Harve and minelaying. One aircraft is recorded as lost on each le Harve and minelaying.

    AE148 crashed at Sanderum while tasked with mining in Kiel Bay leaving one missing Hampden on the le Havre op. No other Hampden loss for le Havre is recorded by Chorley.

    Although 15 Group 5 Hampdens were listed as going to le Havre only 10 can be associated with specific routes in report 155.

    2 a/c Littlehampton - Havre - return same
    8 a/c Bicester - 50 30N 02 40W - Havre - return

    AE353 being listed as having crashed off the Sussex coast would most likely have been not on Brest as listed by Chorley but on le Havre and either leaving/returning on track via Littlehampton or routing independantly return by the Littlehampton corridor.

    Ross
     

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