11th Army Field Workshops RAOC France 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by gmyles, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi Everyone

    Here is my Dads photo of the 3 Recovery Section, 11th Army Field Workshops, RAOC in France in 1940. He was also in 11 AFW at the same time but sadly isn't in the picture. I do have their names if anyone is interested. With the exception of 1 KIA, all were successfully evacuated at end of May 1940.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=262&pictureid=2250

    Has anyone any details on the whereabouts of 11 AFW while they were in France and/or who they were subordinated. There are 50 soldiers in the photo which would suggest that this recovery section was attached to either an Armd or Tank Bde. I have read that it would only half as much if it was an Inf Bde.

    Has anyone any idea why it appears that all of the soldiers are not wearing any cap badges (except the only guy not wearing a forage cap)?

    Any other comments/observations are most welcome and appreciated.

    Thanks Gus.
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Gus,

    Great picture. Do you have the details of the chap killed? That may help with where they were determined by where he is buried.

    Hopefully someone will be able to help you out with the units war diaries-I still can't work out the search engine for it.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  3. idler

    idler GeneralList

    "Army Field workshops were on the scale of 1 per division" says the RAOC history, but that's about it. I would interpret that as GHQ 'owned' the workshops and lent them to the divisions. The best hope is to find out which div they were attached to.

    The impression is that all the workshop units were a bit raw because the provision of enough workshops for a mechanised army had fallen behind. This was partly due to the civil politics (money and will), partly due to military politics: RAOC were not considered to be warry enough to have been consulted about what they thought would be necessary, even if they were unlikely to get it. The situation prompted the review that led to the creation of REME in 1942.
    An idea of the scale of the problem is that the RAOC went from a few hundred officers and a few thousand men pre-war to 8000 officesr and 130000 men at the end of the war - and that's just ordnance services, it would exclude the workshops function that went to REME.

    Sorry I can't offer anything more specific - I think it's down to the war diaries.

    Here you go: Army Fd Wksps
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

  5. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi
    Thanks for all of the replies. Just went through all of the names again on the CWGC/SNWM and 2 soldiers sadly died, both on 29th May 1940. Both buried at Dover Cemetery. One was from Dundee Alexander Reid Crighton and the other was from Fife. CWGC :: Casualty Details

    Dad kept a small container of sand from De Panne and I bleieve that this was the location of 2nd Corps planned withdrawal on 1/2 June. But according to his records, Dad was evacuated on the 30th April. Maybe there was just nothing left to recover!

    Dad spent his time in England post Dunkirk in the Nottingham area at the main RAOC main depot at Chilwell (still with 11 AFW) and then at No 2 OFP at Carlton and and 6 OFP at Woolerton. He then was sent to a Mobilisation Centre at Arnold for 5 weeks before posted to ME leaving in Sep 41 arriving in Egypt Dec 41 with 1st Arm Div WS.

    Will have to find a spare day to get to Kew. Thanks again. Gus.
     
  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    gmyles,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    I wish you well with your research.

    The soldier in the first post photograph appears to be wearing a Scotish "Tammy shanter" but not too sure on the spelling.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  7. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi Tom, the whole section originates from on or around Dundee. The chap in the middle is clearly not RAOC. Looks more like one of the Scottish Infantry regiment badges. I was in Berlin in March for a few days. First time back in 20 years. We hardly recognised the place but had a great time. Now searching Aldi hi and lo as rumour has it there selling bottles of BK! Regards Gus.
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Gus, I wouldn't rely too much on the casualties being they are buried at Dover. They may have been evacuated way before your father and died later from their wounds.

    2 Corps allocated area was Bray Dunes. I wouldn't put much weight in that either because as the perimeter shrunk it came a bit of a free for all regarding where units would be evacuated.

    The units diaries should help a great deal hopefully. Do keep us posted though.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  9. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

  10. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi everyone

    Thanks once again for all of your replies. As Kew is a 6 hr round trip for me I am trying to use every other approach first.

    Taking Idlers post about AFWs being attached to a single Division, the OOB detailed above has 1,2 and 11 AFWs subordinated to 1st Corp whose infantry divisions were numbered 1,2 and 48. But who exactly got what?

    1 and 2 Div went to France in Sep 1939 and 48 Div went to France on 5th January 1940.

    11 AFWs war diary for F&F only starts in Dec 1939 Would it be fair to say that the dates above suggest that 11th AFW were attached to 48th Div?

    Dad's attestation papers say he went straight onto 11 AFW but didn't go to France on 9 Jan 1940. His absense from the photo above coupled with the dates suggest that Dad joined the 11th AFW in France who had already been there some weeks already and the photo, although dated as January 1940 was taken prior to Dad's arrival.

    Thanks

    Gus
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    This is no real help regarding the allocation of 11 AFW but gives some idea of the work being carried out by AFWs during the early period in France. It's an extract from the diary for Directorate of Ordnance Services, 2nd Division.

    [​IMG]

    It would appear that the recovery sections were operating without regard for unit allocation during the move to the concentration areas.

    That 11 AFW arrived in France roughly at the same time as 48th Div doesn't definitely mean that they stayed together. There was a big shake up of territorial and regular units in February 1940 designed to spread experience around the divisions. In the absence of published sources showing the allocation of RAOC support services, the War Diaries are really the best option.
     
  12. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    A total of 24 Royal Army Ordnance Corps killed on the 29th May 1940. You may be able to whittle it rght down from the list below.

    001 AITKEN JC 7595817 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    002 ANGEL RP 7596042 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    003 ARCHIBALD G 7597005 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    004 ASSER HL 104154 4 ORDNANCE FIELD PARK 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    005 ATKIN C 45593 1 AA BDE WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    006 AYSCOUGH JW 7596638 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    007 BARNES HAC 7601849 - 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    008 BOWSTEAD FSP 7575289 1 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    009 BREMNER G 3049547 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    010 CRIGHTON AR 7604745 - 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    011 DEANE WE 7610776 3 BASE AMMUNITION DEPOT 29/05/1940 - - 02/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    012 DIAL JR 7590233 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    013 DORWARD F 7600521 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    014 DOWNING EE 7583216 3 BASE ORDNANCE DEPOT 29/05/1940 - - 02/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    015 EASSON A 7610042 11 FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    016 FARMER A 7616706 14 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 - - 30/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    017 HAGGETT RC 7590666 ATTD 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    018 HIGHAM JP 95682 ATTD 60 ARMY FIELD REGT 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    019 MARSHALL DET 7586643 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    020 PHILLOTT TF 7589930 2 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    021 READ AE 7583334 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    022 SMITH SA 7587791 ATTD HQ, 9TH INF BDE 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    023 WILLIAMS PH 6083590 14 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
    024 WILSON RD 7582364 4 ARMY FIELD WORKSHOP 29/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    CWGC :: Certificate :poppy:

    CWGC :: Certificate :poppy:

    CWGC :: Certificate :poppy:

    My money is on these being the three casualties in the war diary. There is another two on the lst that are remembered on the Dunkirk Memorial that could fit if their bodies were put over the side into the English Channel before they reached the UK.

    The only way to confirm 100% would be to obtain their service records.
     
  15. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    Sorry this has taken such a long to update. The diaries suggest that the chap wearing the tam-o-shanter is probably from the HLI or Cameronians. At the time the photo was taken, several troops were detached in from the nearby infantry regiments for a variety of general duties and also some would be sent to undertake trade tests that, I presume, would allow for them to be transferred into the RAOC.

    I can only assume that if this chap was still 'under training' he would still be wearing his old regimental headress, wouldn't he?

    Regards

    Gus
     
  16. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi Rich

    Just looked at this post again as I was trying to establish who was the SOME of 2nd Div and lo and behold it's in the top right of your diary entry. Great Find. Thanks.

    Dad's recovery section was visited by this chap on 12 May 1940 at a disused tile factory in the small Belgian town of Antoing.

    Regards

    Gus
     
  17. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    I know I am replying to this post 12 years later but did you find out what you were looking for in the end gmyles?

    If it helps I see that Enoch Jones was of 11 field ambulance. Killed 20 May 1940 and now buried in Heverlee cemetery. Originally buried in Tiegem area of Belgium.

    Adam
     
  18. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi Adam

    Yes, I have, thanks for asking.

    Regards

    Gus
     

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