111 Field Battery, RA - Special Force role?

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Gary Kennedy, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Ah, got it to upload OK then! Yes, 32 LMGs is quite a lot for a single Bty, compared to 25 for a full Fd Regt on the usual late war WE. WEs stopped showing pistol/Sten/rifle allocations during 1943 unfortunately. I doubt that the six strong gun detachment could manhandle a 25-pr from ship to shore and back again unassisted by either MT or a big dollop of manpower from somewhere else. So either they were purely static, perhaps on Vis, or they utilised partisan forces to help in the heavy lifting.

    Gary
     
  2. Treadcarefully

    Treadcarefully Junior Member

    If you're wondering how the 25 Pounders' were being moved around check out the following link to Ebay Photos from Michael McConvilles' 'Small War in the Balkans' book;

    eBay | Small War in the BALKANS - BRITISH Wartime Yugoslavia MILITARY Invasion - 1st Ed

    Looks like it was a piece of cake!

    You should be able to get a preview to his book on Amazon;

    Here are some quotes; (apols for errors or omissions - my comments in [] brackets)

    Page x;

    ‘…the prime sources have been the contemporary reports & assessments now lodged in the Public Record Office at Kew… among them the war diaries of the… 111 Field Regiment, Royal Artillery…’

    PP175-176;

    ‘… by May 1944…Next came 111 Field Regiment of the Royal Artillery, with three[?]batteries each of eight 25-pounder gun-howitzers, along with the squat armoured quads that towed the guns, the limbers that carried the shells, and a plethora of jeeps and other wheeled vehicles.
    The gunners brought an immense improvement to the defensive fire-power of Vis. Colonel J.S. Elliot, their commanding officer, ‘a bloody fine soldier’ in Tom Churchill’s assessment, soon became impatient with standing by to resist a German assault. He experimented to discover whether a 25-pounder gun could be loaded into a Landing Craft, Assault. He discovered that the gun could not, as he had hoped, be simply wheeled up the ramp. It did not fit. It could be made to fit by temporarily removing its wheels and other protuberances, and could soon be reassembled after landing. Elliot took his findings to Tom Churchill and offered artillery support for future raids. Churchill accepted with pleasure, adding that he hoped that Elliot’s gunner boss in Italy would not be too offended by this bending of instructions. Elliot was unconcerned about what his gunner boss thought.
    Further troops of the Raiding Support Regiment joined, with heavy Browning machine-guns, 75-mm mountain artillery, mobile anti-aircraft guns, and, later, heavy 4.2-inch mortars. A heavy anti-aircraft battery was sent to supplement the light bofors… on the 28 March… a 500 pound bomb scored a direct hit [in Komiza] …on the only building there used by 43 Commando. Lieutenant Hancock and two signallers were killed …

    Pp177-178;

    ‘… After Anzio [late May?] the position was much easier…Later still there was another [?] luxury for Colonel Elliot and 111 Field Regiment. The ingenious stripping down of 25-pounder guns in order to fit them into LCA’s became redundant.. Landing Craft, Tanks, put in an appearance. LCT’s were big and ugly, and had cavernous holds with plenty of room for the guns, the quads, the limbers and the supporting vehicles. When the ramp at the bow was lowered the vehicles and guns could simply be driven on or off, in the manner of a modern day car ferry (of which LCT’s were, in fact, the precursors)…’

    Also, here are some quotes from "Raiding Support Regiment: The Diary of a Special Forces Soldier 1943-1945 by Bombardier Walter Jones" released by UPP this year.

    P88
    Chapter XI
    The Raid On Brac

    …mischievous suggestion doing the rounds that it was the embarrassment caused to High Command by the Miljet escapade which had prompted, within a few days of its conclusion, the hurried conception of another raid… the urgency fuelled the theory…Exactly a week after the Miljet, all the Troop’s six Browning’s were placed on stand-by for the ‘biggest job yet’: we were to be ready within 24 hours… only when the size of the operation became apparent did the pulses of genuine excitement swamp those early fears. [!]… A desperately surrounded Tito had signalled… for a diversion from the Vis garrison which might relieve the concentrated pressure on him on the mainland near Drvar. High Command had decided upon Brac [so that] it might appear to be a preliminary to a full scale invasion of mainland Yugoslavia…


    P89

    … Podselje throbbed. Our Yugoslav friends beamed with happiness… On 31 May we were told. The next day, equipped with our Browning’s (and wretched pedestals), two Bren-guns, our own personal small-arms, cases upon cases of ammunition, ‘compo’ rations and water, we were transported to the sea inlet village of Rukavac, which was already agog with bustling activity around as many beached landing craft as its meagre landing points could accommodate… I could not help sensing an atmosphere of cool efficiency and smooth, confident organisation pervading the preparations… Partisans were there in their hundreds; buoyant, voluble and inevitably singing as lustily as ever. The 25-pounders of a battery of the Royal Artillery’s 111th Field regiment were being loaded together with hundreds of rounds of ammunition onto LCAs (Landing Craft, Assault) or LCT’s (Landing Craft ,Tank), creating a reassuring potential firepower with which to bolster the operation. We knew similar activities… were proceeding on the quaysides of Komiza and Vis town. The Partisan schooner fleet had been marshalled in its entirety to supplement the sizeable Royal Navy contribution…

    Again there had been some personnel shuffling and supplementing of gun crews…

    P90
    Operations on Brac – June 1944
    … Boarded LCI 289 in the early evening at Rukavac… sailed at 19:00… having been told… we were bound for Brac on a major multi-point-landing raid of considerable magnitude… Partisan singing had to be silenced [on our] approach over a tranquil… Adriatic…the moon silhouetted the landing craft [as it] crunched onto one of Dalmatia’s rare sandy beaches at precisely 01:30 on 2 June. Unopposed…

    Well disciplined, experienced Commandos queued in orderly calm ahead of us…the Navy had skilfully brought us safely ashore to the friendly, land based torch signals of the advance party. We were undetected and at the planned landing point east of the village of Bol…

    P91

    Peace shattered by Navy turning on motors to lower ramps

    … the Navy lads worked like Trojans in helping us unload our gear, so that within half an hour LCI 289 was fading into the blackness of night at half-speed astern… Bol might well have been a deserted village: no sign of life emanated from its few houses…

    Our role had been explained to us on the LCI... almost a passive part… operation destined to be intensely hostile in its ambition to engage the Germans already on the island, and to draw more from the mainland within the following few days. The Battery of eight 25-pounder guns of the 111th Field (Artillery) Regiment was to be sited near the landing beach on the fringe of the village, to give shelling support to the attacking force of Commandos and Partisans during their approach to the four strategically held, German fortified positions situated mainly on the heights of the north.

    P92

    Our Browning’s were to be used in an anti-aircraft role in the defence of the 25-pounders. .. A sense of detachment had already affected us. Seeing the Commandos and Partisans disappearing into the blackness of the village…

    … Brac is rocky… ([with] a peak of 2500 feet)… Nature had therefore favoured the occupying forces on Brac… why the sound of small arms fire??...

    P93
    Mystery remained for 43 years… Only Michael McConvilles Small War in The Balkans helped

    Their landing had not been the first… ‘On the previous night a Company of the Highland Light Infantry, with a party of sixty or so Partisans, had landed four miles west of Bol from Partisan schooners. Their specific objective was the urgent liquidation of the German Observation Post (OP) on the highest peak of the island, at Nidova Gora.

    They failed to make their objective – gallant scots

    ‘It was an early instance of Partisan obstinacy, muddle and casual disregard for detail. Firstly the schooner’s skipper had refused to take the Scots to their agreed landing place. They thereby faced a difficult, overland climbing trek of five or six gruelling miles. The chance of an attack on the first night was thereby lost. Secondly, their Brac-based colleagues had provided totally misleading and inadequate information about the OP’s defences, upon which it was necessary to rely since daytime reconnaissance would have been suicidle in open exposure to the peak.’
    So their second night’s attack (the noise we heard) was heavily repulsed with such devastating casualties inflicted on the HLI, particularly their officers and NCO’s that they had to withdraw with their wounded, make their way back to the coast for re-embarkation and return to Vis, The first of the Brac calamities had taken place.’
    If the HLI attack on Nidova Gora had surprised Jerry he would, within an hour or so, be aware of the Partisan force that had landed in the south-east supported by the RSR’s 75mm mountain guns. There rapid total success was soon achieved by the invaders. That noise was understandable. We knew about those landings, scheduled for a trifle ahead of ours.’


    Glad I wasn't on the receiving end of this lot!


    Cheers
     
  3. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Thanks for posting those excerpts TC, they would seem to put the tin hat on it for my mystery WE being anything to do with 111 Fd Regt. They didn't go to Vis until about six months after the document was issued, and from the details above they had their normal allocation of quads and other MT. So I'm still none the wiser of who was supposed to be organisaed on such a stripped down basis, but it doesn't look to be linked to the Vis/Adriatic troops.

    Thanks,

    Gary
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Thanks for the scans Drew. They've left me wondering whether the 25-prs could have possibly been manhandled ashore and into firing positions, then back again. Probaby the WE I've got is for a static unit, and I'm making a false connection with the Vis/Adriatic Bde.

    Cheers,

    Gary

    I would look in the units war diary-It will probably tell you line and verse what they did.
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Amazing what can be in the obvious places to look:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=92049&stc=1&d=1349300235

    From Neillands' The Raiders: The Army Commandos 1940-46 - no source given for the photo.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Gary,

    having updated and sorted my pix I am now able to look at the battery in a (W.E.) context. That might help, but doesn't necessarily, of course.

    In A.C.Is. of 2nd Feb 1944, a new batch of tables was started in volume VI, 1270 - 1280. Not only containing the W.E. you mentioned (1272), but also the "Headquarters, 805 Defence Regiment, R.A., Middle East" (1276, effective 29th Oct 1943). It has a similar lack of transport (2 motor-cycles, 2 trucks, 5-cwt., 2 trailers). No other trucks, lorries or tractors, as (even) in "18th Defence Regiment, R.A., Gibraltar" (IX/90/3, 22nd Sep 1943, 6th Sep 1943, WO 24/948, No. 1308).

    According to the site "The Royal Artillery 1939 - 45)
    http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/defidx/index.html
    it is not only an odd No. (the only others being 1 - 18 and 26), but also short lived (formed Oct 1943, disbanded Nov 1943).
    So the Battery W.E. might have been drawn in accordance to this regiment, following one of numerous plans caled off at short notice. And shared the 805th's fate.

    Nigel F Evans doesn't mention any Defence Regiments nor a No. 805 on his site
    http://nigelef.tripod.com/regtsumm.htm#source
    But as source he mentions "WO212/493 that lists all artillery units and headquarters that served overseas with dates and superior formations" which might help.

    Concerning the W.E. you mentioned, it seems also somewhat peculiar to me that remark ( b ) allows for 9 of the contained 18 signallers to be driver-operators, entitled to tradesmen's pay. The contained trucks, 5-cwt., are obviously driven by the batmen-drivers.

    Best wishes
    Aixman
     
  7. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Aixman,

    Thanks very much for that, the short-lived 805 Def Regt does sound a likely solution to the query, and likewise points to a static unit, hence the minimal transport. Be interesting to know where they were based in case that offers any clues.

    Cheers,

    Gary
     
  8. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Joslen lists 805 Defence Regt as existing on 1 Jan 44
     
  9. Bigdogno31

    Bigdogno31 New Member

    Hi all my grandfather "Tom Farnworth" was a part of this special unit. They dismantled the guns and loaded them on to landing crafts, relocated then shelled the targets then relocated again.
     
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  10. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Looking for a slight connection to 111th Field Regiment just I found a couple of items not shown here and not in priority order:

    1. There is a 14 pgs. paperback in existence, although Amazon shows it there are only sparse details: Adriatic Venture (The Story of 111th Field Regiment R.A. in Italy, Jugoslavis and Albania) Paperback – 1 Jan. 1944, See: Adriatic Venture (The Story of 111th Field Regiment R.A. in Italy, Jugoslavis and Albania): Amazon.co.uk: Unknown: Books

    2. There is a 2016 book 'Snowdrops for a Soldier: My Tribute to Uncle Charlie' by Karen Yates; it is unclear when the book stops as her uncle died. See: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Snowdrops-...o+Uncle+Charlie&qid=1587217359&s=books&sr=1-1

    3. An obituary for an officer with the regiment @ brac: Captain Edward Roger Wakefield | Christ Church, Oxford University

    4. John Cutress MC appears in two places. Citing the first:
    From: https://gastronomes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/HistoryofGastronome.pdf

    His obituary has more details: John Cutress
     
  11. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Maj P S Turner's MC citation.

    A brush with history: I actually have a postwar BD blouse of his, by which time he'd gone airborne, and a souvenired EM34 rangefinder. He was an officer in the St John's Ambulance Brigade back when I was a young cadet 45-or-so years ago. Just recovered the blouse from my parents' house so thought I'd better track down his MC.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Volitans

    Volitans Member

    Just to add to this, Raiding Support Regiment: The Diary of a Special Forces Soldier 1943-45 by Walter Jones has several details regarding the 111th fire support missions. Only £3.99 on Amazon as an e-book
     
  13. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    For 25 pounder Field Gun Range see:

    25-pr data sheet

    Maximum Range Charge Super (as per Chris Grove and RA 1939-45) 13400 Yds = 7.6 Miles
    Charge 3 (Std Charge) 11825 Yds = 6.7 Miles

    Charge Super was used to enhance shell velocity primarily for Armour Piercing (Anti Tank) supply was therefore limited, particularly in Italy.
    Also used in the Apennines for extended range when access to suitable sites was limited
    particularly when firing at Upper Register for Crest Clearance (over mountain tops).
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
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  14. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Regarding Landing Craft this thread mentions Landing Craft but at Anzio (22nd January 1944) 25 pounders were carried on modified American DUKW's (ex-Salerno) on and off loaded with "A" Frame Derricks the same as the American 105's in the Pacific at Iwa Jima. The 25 Pdr had a wider wheelbase than the American 105
    The British RAOC DUKW was too narrow for this.
    It would seem that our forces in the Adriatic were not aware of this or could not harness American assistance.

    THE ALLIED LANDINGS AT ANZIO: 22 JANUARY-23 MAY 1944
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
  15. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    American Marines Artillery landing in DUKW's Iwo Jima
    Same principles used at Salerno and Anzio.

     
  16. Volitans

    Volitans Member

    Apologies as this is a daft question.
    111th Fd Regt RA and the Raiding Support Regiment were both part of 2nd Special Service Brigade.
    With this in mind, would they have had Tactical Recognition Flashes to display their attachment to the brigade? Such as the Combined Ops flash?
     
  17. Rob Crane

    Rob Crane Well-Known Member

    I went down a bit of a rabbit hole today. I'm still in it,and not finished digging yet.

    There was a COPP team on Vis from July 1944 and they did quite a lot of minor beach recce on islands near Vis, and then beach marking/pilotage to guide in the lighters with the 25 pounders. The COPP team's diary mentions meetings with Elliott.

    I've been throwing info at my website without much tidying – Operation Decomposed 2:
    COPP Survey | July 1944

    This dive down the rabbit hole hole prompted by finding some photos in the IWM collection that may well show these chaps on Vis on 27 August. The caption mentions Lovište on the Pelješac Peninsula (possibly related to Op Grandfather 1 – could they be unloading after that? The dates I've seen suggest it was the previous day or two.)

    IWM NA 18092
    COPP_Survey_IWM_NA_18092.jpg

    IWM NA 18094
    COPP_Survey_IWM_NA_18094.jpg

    Edited to add: it does look to me like they're straining to load, not unload.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2023
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  18. Volitans

    Volitans Member

    Rob, great images and great timing!
    I am currently transcribing the War Diary and have just reached August 44 and Op Grandfather I.
    Loviste was a landing area for Grandfather I, and I can get back to you with more information when I get back from work.

    Interesting times!
     
    Rob Crane likes this.
  19. Volitans

    Volitans Member

    Here is the transcribed War Diary around the end of August 44.

    25th August 1944 - Vis
    14:00hrs - loading of guns and ammo on to RCL’s began - for Operation Grandfather I - at RUKAVAC.
    19:00hrs - Personnel embarked.
    20:15hrs - Convoy of LCI’s, LCA’s, RCL’s, ML’s and MGB’s sailed from RUKAVAC


    26th August 1944 - Vis
    01:00hrs - Main convoy arrived Scedro and lay up during hours of daylight.
    02:00hrs - Advance party landed JEZDIJA Cove - Peljesac to reece routes to OP’s and prepare gun areas, and watch for German patrols.


    27th August 1944 - Vis
    02:30hrs - Main party arrived PELJESAC, disembarked and occupied respective positions.
    06:00hrs - Guns opened fire on enemy positions in PUPNAT.
    12:00hrs - Evacuation of guns began
    13:15hrs - Evacuation of guns completed
    16:00hrs - Evacuation of covering force and Force HQ completed
    17:00hrs - Convoy sailed for VIS


    28th August 1944 - Vis
    02:00hrs - Convoy arrived RUKAVAC

    -------------

    Within 111 Fd Regt were 3 Batteries, within which were 2 "Troops":
    - 211 Bty contained A + B Troop.
    - 212 Bty contained C + D Troop
    - 476 Bty contained E + F Troop

    On most Ops from Vis, only one Bty would go - and for Op "Grandfather I" it was 476's turn.
    The Operation Note for "Grandfather I" states:

    D-Day - 27th August 44
    Guns land at 01:00hrs as follows:-
    “E” Troop 476 Bty (4 x 25pdrs) at Jetty at 465871
    “F” Troop 476 Bty (4 x 25pdrs) at LOVISTE Jetty 467862
    11 Troop, E Bty RSR (4 x 75mms) at PRLINA Cove 454843 (Peter Beach)


    And take up positions adjacent to beaches
    Shoot from 06:00hrs to 12:00hrs
    Guns re-embark 12:00hrs to 13:00hrs
    Covering troops re-embark 13:00hrs to 13:30hrs
    Convoy joins up and sails for HVAR, SCEDRO and VIS.


    -------------

    So, the images you have found are most likely F troop re-embarking back onto the RCL's at Loviste Jetty, as this matches both date and location.
    Hope this helps!
     
  20. Rob Crane

    Rob Crane Well-Known Member

    Fab – thank you! I'm hoping to do a bit more digging later this week.

    I'll admit I'm a little sceptical about the 27 August date for the photos – it could be that was when the film was received for developing or some similar 'milestone', rather than the date the photographer took them, depending how good the photographer was at noting details? – but it's surely around/about that date and those operations. (The more I look the more I think they're straining to get it on to the RCL, rather than straining to stop it rolling down the ramp, but that's so subjective on my part.)

    [Edited because I wrote 'February' rather than 'August' originally - must've been "one of those days"]
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2023
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