1/5th Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment 1939 My grandfather

Hi

I wondered if anyone has any information about my grandfather Staff Sargeant Frederick Ash born 1899. He lived in Leeds at the time and died back in Leeds in 1944. I have tried the MOD but no records at all. I have this photo of him in 1939 but my father was only 4 when he died and knew very little about him. Any information about him or his regiment/ medals would be very much appreciated as I know nothing at all. He was in the 1st 5th battalion West Yorkshire regiment.

Thank you very much indeed

Becky Stevenson

 

Welcome aboard, I have just sent you a PM regarding research.

That is a puzzle that the MoD records have nowt, which is always the best place to start. Google has nowt either. In my limited experience Other Ranks hardly feature on Google, unless they win a medal. Thankfully others here have the expertise and knowledge to help - for example looking at the photo.

Going on his DoB it is unlikely he served in WW1, so his medals would refer to inter-war service, so you may have to plot where his unit served.

I see you appealed for help via The British Legion in 2019, so that I assume failed.

There a number of threads here on his unit, so that might help explain their journey in WW2:

1/5th Battalion West Yorkshire regiment 7/11/42 where were they what were they doing for the next
Remembering Today 13/2/42 Private: John Herbert Smith,4539548, West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of
1/5th Bn West Yorkshire Regt (Prince of Wales's Own) 13th Feb 1942
1st battalion West Yorks Regiment missing men 10-05-1944
49th Infantry Division formation signs

Have you tried the regimental museum, especially if they have back issues of any journal or magazine?

Good luck.

 

Hello and welcome
How did you contact the MOD re his service records
was it via this link and info Get a copy of military service records

ASH, FREDERICK 45
GRO Reference: 1944 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 472

Have you applied for his death cert which could give you a bit about his employment at the time


regards
Clive

 

I can't add to what his military career was by 1944, but can say that the 1/5th West Yorks was a Territorial Army Battalion. Before the 1939 expansion of the TA it was just known as the 5th Bn, but with the expansion the existing 5th Bn became 1/5th & the new bn 2/5th.

If he was still in the TA when WW2 started he would have been mobilised in Aug/Sep 1939 & therefore may not appear on the 1939 Register. However if he does appear this may give some details of his service or war time duties such as ARP that he had volunteered for.

The title 1/5th also existed in WW1. With a birth year of 1899 unless exempted by occupation, health, family circumstances etc, he would have been called up on/around his 18th birthday in 1917. At the start of 1918 you had to be 19 to serve overseas, but with the British Army manpower crisis of late 1917 & the losses in the German Spring Offensive of March-May 1918, this was reduced to 18 yr 6m (but with a required amount of training), before being reinstated at 19 later in 1918. As a conscript this service could have been in any regiment/Corps, rather than his local one.

Do any of his medals still exist in the family ?

I've checked the UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945, and Commonwealth War Graves Commission, but no entry so may have been discharged from the army before he died.

If Mod can't find any records it may be worth considering if he served under a different name.

 

Thank you very much for the replies, all really useful information. I have sent off a request to the mod and no records were found at all. Im struggling to find his date of birth so limited details of him. We have no medals of his, my father was not given any as only 4 when he died. I will keep looking thank you

 

In order to get the MOD records you need to provide either a date of birth or a service number, if you don't know them perhaps that is why your request was unsuccessful.

It may be possible to find his dob but some detailed family information will be required. What was your father's full name, dob and place of birth, same information for any siblings.

What was your grandmother's full name and dob, when did she die? Where did all these events take place? As Clive said, post #2, have you his death certificate, this will also give addresses which may help find family in 1939, that would give a dob?

If you can supply as much information as possible we will have a go.

 

I have located all this information but still no dob, it’s proving to be very elusive at the moment. I am determined to find it though

 

If you are willing to post the information others will try and help.

 

My grandfather first appears in 1939 on the census in Leeds, Frederick Ash 9 Wade Street, Leeds. I have a photo of him in his Staff Sargeant uniform stamped 1939. He married in Heckmondwike Dec1939 to Elizabeth Turner, then died in Leeds in oct 1944 at the age of 45. My father knew of him fighting in Burma and he did not return home to his knowledge then died in the hospital in Leeds.

The census gives a dob of 2/6/1899 but there is no match with that date of birth so assuming he lived somewhere else before then but I do not know where. That’s all I know really. The census could also have noted dob down wrong.

Thank you for all your help

 

2nd June 1899 is his DoB - its on the 1939 Register

Its possible he was only WW1 as being 40 odd at the start of WW2 would make him probably too old for active serrvice, but he could have been in the Home Guard and those records are also with the MOD

Request Home Guard service records or if he did service actively in 1939 then use the link provided in post 3

TD

Note to self - learn to type faster

 

Maybe this is him

England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Froderick Ash
Death Age: 45
Birth Date: abt 1899
Registration Date: Oct 1944
[Nov 1944]
[Dec 1944]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Leeds
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9b
Page: 472

Cant trust Ancestry to transcribe correctly

TD

 

Yes this is him as I ordered the death certificate and it was Frederick when it arrived. The addresses correspond with where he lived at the time. I just realized this was the 1939 register and not the census so more likely to be an accurate dob presumably. I know his father has the same name but really cannot find a birth certificate for him

thanks again

 

Well there was only 4 born in 1899

Frederick Ernest Ash 1899 Jul-Aug-Sep St Saviour Southwark London

Frederick James Ash 1899 Jul-Aug-Sep West Derby Lancashire

Frederick Charles Ash 1899 Apr-May-Jun Pontefract Yorkshire West Riding

Frederick Ash 1899 Jul-Aug-Sep Glanford Brigg Lincolnshire

Your next move might be to check the 1901 and/or 1911 census but you might need to know possible parents names or siblings names to verify which family

For example Frederick Charles become Fred Chas in the 1911 census, but knowing his parents or siblings names would verify this. It also shows that you need to search for varieties on his names, many military records online only use the initials and surname fro example
Name: Fred Chas Ash
Age in 1911: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Castleford, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Pontefract
Search Photos: Search for 'Pontefract' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Yorkshire-West Riding
Country: England
Street Address: Castle Villas Pontefract Yorks
Registration District: Pontefract
Registration District Number: 505
Sub-registration District: Pontefract
ED, institution, or vessel: 07
Piece: 27467
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Ash 42
Alice Ash 40
Mary Elizabeth Ash 18
Agnes Maud Ash 15
Fred Chas Ash 12
Florence A Ash 8
Lawrence E Ash 4
Wilfred Ash 1


Have used the Pontefract one as an example as thats I think the closest to Leeds

TD

 

Not quite true, there were a couple of Freds, including one from Pontefract but admittedly it would seem he died an infant. Frederick Charles may have died in 1976. Afraid there are too many unknowns.

Becky, you say that your great grandfather was also Frederick, have you got more details and who did he marry? A mother's maiden name for your grandfather should help to locate him.

 

I have no details of my great grandfather or great grandmother unfortunately, just his name. I know he was already deceased by the time my grandfather got married in 1939, that’s all

Thanks

 

According to ancestry trees, Frederick Charles of Pontefract, was born 27.2.1899, married Mary Smith in Pontefract in 1926 & died in 1976 so he is probably not the one we are looking for.

This site will give mothers maiden name for any of the Fred/Frederick births from 1899, so hope one of these mothers matches to a Fredrick Ash marriage. Register in the order certs section & you can search.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

I see there are no extra war or military duties mentioned in his entry on the 1939 register, but as his occupation is a plumber, this was a reserved occupation I think. Certainly my grandfather, also a plumber, & in his thirties with children in 1939 was never called up, instead serving in the Home Guard & was directed to repairing bomb damaged houses. For this reason & due to his age your grandfather if he had been in the TA in the 1930's he may not have been recalled in 1939 or if he was may have been released.

I have always found the 1939 index fairly accurate, as their entry on this was used to issue ration books and ID cards to citizens, although occasionaly the year is wrong due to people saying "i'm in my 80th year" rather than "i'm 79" etc.

Home Guards did not usually wear the peaked cap shown in his photo, so that will be 1930's I think.

It seems logical that his medals would be for WW1, as being born in June 1899, he would have sufficent training to go overseas when the age limit was reduced to 18y 6m in Spring 1918. There is a WW1 site similar to this one with lots of helpful folks
Great War Forum

Do his childrens birth certificates give any extra clues about his occupation/service ?

If all else fails & its a long way away, the 1921 census is due for release in 2022.