Transfers between Libyan & Italian POW camps?

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Alanlweeks, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. Alanlweeks

    Alanlweeks Member

    According to the CWGC my great uncle, Sapper George Stephenson (505 Field Coy., Royal Engineers), died on 7 November 1942 and was buried in Tripoli War Cemetery. However, the family have always thought he was a prisoner of war in Italy, a fact supported by a local newspaper article at the time. MOD casualty reports for Expeditionary Force/Middle East/Western Desert list him as missing and wounded in August 1942, a wounded POW in September and as died POW in Jan 1943.

    Is it at all likely he would have been transferred from the Western Desert to Italy perhaps for treatment and then sent back to be buried. Or is it just that he was captured by the Italians in Libya and put in one of their POW camps there?

    Many thanks.
     

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  2. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Alan,

    Not my area of expertise, that caveat aside - it is possible that the ship taking your uncle from North Africa was attacked and sank close to the shore, so he was back ashore in North Africa. Possibly injured and so died still an Italian POW. British and Italian records are not always accurate.

    This incident may explain, an Italian boat Scillin Secondo was sunk 13-14/11/1942, after leaving Tripoli, by a RN submarine and the truth was hidden by the MoD for many years:
    Link: https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?144576

    Note the list of those lost does not include your uncle.

    The sinking is fully explained and why the official secrecy on: SS Scillin - Wikipedia

    505 Field Company appears to have moved from North Africa, after the victory in Tunisia and fought in North-West Europe. Oddly I cannot identify others lost from the unit around that time; it could just be me and the CWGC site.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  3. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Alan

    My first and best advice is for you to send for his service records. You will find the address elsewhere on this forum.

    In the meantime, I have uploaded the concentration form for your uncle from the CWGC.org, website.

    It clearly shows that he died in Libya on 7 November 1942.

    The British Army casualty Series WO 417 held in the National Archives have three entries for him showng him missing and wounded, missing wounded and POW and died as POW. I will upload them later.

    In my extensive research into prisoners of war in Italian hands I have not come aross anyone who was sent from Libya to Italy for treatment and then returned to Libya.Perhaps you might like to contact cwgc and ask them where he was concentrated from. Given the variey of regiments on the concentration sheet I suspect he was brought in from an Italian field hospital.

    Best wishes,
    Vitellino
     

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    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
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  4. Alanlweeks

    Alanlweeks Member

    Thank you, Vitellino. I thought it was probably unlikely he'd been moved, the situation was just misinterpreted or misunderstood by the family and newspaper. Thanks too for the concentration record - I wasn't aware of those and have downloaded copies. I already have the three WO 417 entries (from FMP) thank you. There appear also to be three records on Forces War Records but I don't have a subscription - are they likely to be the same, do you think?

    I agree his service records would help but I understand there are huge delays getting hold of these at present (over a year in some cases) and anyway they are soon to be transferred to TNA. We're trying to gather information for a short article on his life to be published in Burghfield within a couple of months, where he grew up and is remembered on the local war memorial.

    Thanks again.
    Alan
     
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  5. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Pleased you already have the three documents from FMP. You won't find anything extra on the other site you mention.

    Your family was probably confused by the fact that your uncle was a prisoner of the Italians in their colony of Libya rather than in Italy itself.

    I will try to see what I can find in Italian sources on the field hospital.

    Vitellino
     
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  6. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I have located the hospital.

    I 'googled' Tripoli Military Hospital and found two postcards referring to it on ebay. It is called the Ospedale MIlitare 'La Busetta'. I will repeat my suggestion that you should ask cwgc.org if your uncle was brought in from there.

    I then found a reference to La Busetta in a book published in 2017 entitled Captives of War by Claire Makepiece. In the index there is a reference to L/Bdr. E.B.Stirling, RA, captured at Tobruk on 21 June 42, who was in the hospital between 19 October to 5 November 1942.

    Best wishes,

    Vitellino

    PS I have sent you a private message.
    1928-TRIPOLI-LIBIA-Messa-militare-alla-BUSETTA-con.jpg ospedale militare tripoli 192.jpg
     
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  7. Alanlweeks

    Alanlweeks Member

    Thank you again. I found the casualty lists of an E C Stirling on FMP who was reported missing on 20 June 1942. Highly likely same chap. Sounds like George could well have been in an Italian hospital in Libya. No doubt the post went via Italy.

    Found this photo of a military hospital in Tripoli on eBay too. Not the same place, but George could have been there.
     

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  8. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    What led you to believe that the post went via Italy? Do you have a POW postcard?

    A question was asked in the Italian parliament on 18 May 1959 about what had happened to the records of the hospital. It seems that they had all been lost, so the only way of finding out whether or not George was a patient there is to get hold of a copy of his service records

    I have attached the page and anyone interested can translate the bit highlighted in yellow on Google Translate.

    Vitellino

    Parliamentary question La Busetta.jpg
     
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  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    UK, World War II Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
    Name: E. C. Stirling
    Rank: L/Bdr.
    Military Date: 1939-1945
    Regiment: R.a.
    Service Number: 800806
    Description: 21: Imperial Prisoners of War Held in Italy, Italian-Occupied Territory: British & Commonwealth Army


    Name: E. C. Stirling
    Rank: L/Bdr.
    Military Date: 1939-1945
    Regiment: R.a.
    Service Number: 800806
    Description: 11: Imperial Prisoners of War Held in Germany or German-Occupied Territory: British Army

    Dont think its the man you are after
     
  10. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    My mistake. The person in the hospital WAS EC Stirling. I mentioned him as there could be some information about La Busetta hospital in the book in which he is listed.

    Vitellino
     
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