Hi Gents Hoping someone out there can help resolve an issue regarding markings. I've posted the photos and would be interested in knowing what they indicate. I think I know but is based on modern tac symbols, with a mixture of multiple reading. The other question is in regards to Canadian specifically, markings on tanks. I have a photo of a tank with white CT#s probably a few days prior to loading, then 09 June same tank with black CT#s and black tank name. I am suspecting that the colour change occurred prior to loading the tank. Was there a specific point in time during the NWE campaign that the powers to be ordered the colourful tac symbols painted onto vehicles, last but not least. Bridge classification symbols, not painted or used WW2?
Hi Tanker, I am not especially familiar with the period of the buildup to D-Day, but: Squadron tac signs were a standard. If Holy Roller didn't show any in a period prior to D-Day then would I assume have something to do with the regiment specifically. Bridge classification symbols were used - there were a few different colour patterns - but not every tank seems to have sported them.
Thanks, good to know. I know after pouring over many photos pre/during/post D Day tac symbols appear to be, shall we say, not consistent. It would appear that there was a very large interpretation of orders on painting tac symbols and aerial identification stars on armoured vehicles. Any idea on the tac symbols on the photos?
Hi Tanker, Your first photo is not a couple of days before loading for Normandy is it? That’s not the UK. Regards Tom
If you're looking for a general guide to markings the Canadian Soldiers site actually does have a decent overview. www.canadiansoldiers.com In the larger photo it seems quite bizarre that Holy Roller has two square squadron emblems and neither of them have a number. Possibly blanked out for censorship reasons? It would probably make sense (if possible) to work backward from historical info about the tank to determine what colour the squares would have been rather than to guess. Square indicate "B" squadron. I'm not going to speculate about the callsign of 3 right now because I haven't read that much about callsigns and regiments varied. Looks like they were given a black background which was a bit nonstandard, and the squares would have been red for senior regiment in the brigade. On the second photo we have an Arm of Service flash with the number 51 with a white bar. You can see from the CanadianSoldiers link that this would have had a red background for armour, and the 51 identified the most senior armoured regiment in the brigade. On the right of the tank we can see what LOOKS like ought to be a maple leaf emblem but I don't actually see a leaf, which is quite strange. Also the very bright middle bar. Are you sure this is Holy Roller? There is also that small ring shape on the rear but I don't know if that's a tacsign.
Just to explain, on the right side what I would have expected to see is black stripes top and bottom, with dark blue in the middle, and a Maple Leaf. But maybe this was repainted during the period when it was being transported...? Where even was the tank in 1946?
Hi Chris This is a photo taken in JUNE 1946 when it just came off of the CPR rail head in London Ontario. This is HOLY ROLLER. We know it was rescued from the either a compound or a rail car, based on the mileage this tank had and the repairs it was going for scrap. I think that classification was C3. The CO of the Regiment insisted that the tank be turned in as best of shape it could be as it had been with the Regiment since before D Day,(very possibly the tank may have received a new coat of paint and tac symbols, that would make sense as any others turned in would have been a little worn) and it was his tank originally. We also know it went to B Squadron. Been to Canadian Soldiers prior to research. The interesting thing about that time and army convention of tac symbols. It appears that things are not always what they appear or what the system stated. We strongly suspect it went to the OC of B Sqn as it carried two 19 sets, but the 3 has us thrown off. Based on photos from other units, it would make sense that it indicates B Sqn Troop Leader 3 Troop. Who knows, that just might be it. Will see if any others can cast some light on this. Thanks for the interest.
Hi Tanker, So very few tanks were brought back to Canada - I assume when you say it was destined for scrap, that this was in Germany, or that something got mixed up after it was brought back, if it had to be rescued from being scrapped again. I wonder if during the period of being transferred home, the brigade emblem was repainted with something else. It should be black/blue/black Dick Taylor mentioned in his Warpaint book that different regiments used different symbols for their callsigns (like the '3'). Looking at more photos from the regiment might help understand what their system was. Thank you very much for sharing the photos. I understand the tank is undergoing some restoration - do you know anything of that? I'll have to make a trip to London when that's complete. Cheers, Chris
The 3 inside the square normally means 3 Tp B Sqn. The double square on the turret sides is however a mystery. I agree that the paint (of both tank and markings) looks too neat not to have been applied recently, i.e. post war. Therefore, these are not necessarily faithfully reporduced wartime markings either.
Hi Chris From what I have read all of the Canadian equipment was turned into a handful of depots in Holland. It appears to be clustered between Nijmegan and Enschede/Almelo and the port of Antwerp. From what I can gather and it is a guess at best. Vehicles that were or had out lived their usefulness were heading north to a collective (scrap) depot. My team is suspecting that the paint job is after rescue and before being shipped to Canada. Many photos that we do have show no numerical or squadron markings on the tanks, let alone unit/divisional markings. But thanks for that link I shall investigate. I am fortunate to be the fellow in charge of the preservation team. We have a mandate to have it ready to be placed back into the park for 01 May 2022, although actual life into the park has not been decided.
Thanks for the reply. The markings that you see on the photo are what was on the tank when it arrived in London Ontario in June 1946. No disagreement that they are very neat and orderly, so we are thinking applied after rescue before being shipped to Canada. But the damned double squares.....always a rabbit hole to go down.
Oh, fantastic! I wish the very best to you and your team! Sorry I just used underline rather than a link. I can dig more into the book in question although it does not cover Canadian unit specifically.
Apparently HOLY ROLLER was 1 H 2iC's tank on D Day. It might have changed to B Sqn later on, which would explain part of the 1946 markings. See HOLY ROLLER - was it a post war name? - MLU FORUM
Tanker, Tac symbols were already in effect on D Day, as were the bridge classification signs. On this photo, which I am sure you already know, obviously shot in England prior to D Day, this Sherman III CT152655 may have the RHQ (Red) Diamond on the rear of the turret bin, but apparently the name was not applied on the hull sides (yet?): Source: https://www.holyrollermemorial.ca/history The loading code means LCT Serial 1107, which was LCT(4) 522 of 20 LCT Flotilla, "K" LCT Squadron (no pic of her I'm afraid). Planned to land at H+45 on MIKE RED Beach. The article linked in the MLU thread in my previous post tells when CT152655 of 1946 has had all its six bogies (of the early, M3 type as visible on the pre-D Day photo) replaced towards the end of the war (and apparently its idlers and tracks too). If you have more photos of HOLY ROLLER (or of other 1 H tanks), could you post them here please? Michel
HOLY ROLLER was the Regimental 2i/c calls sign until approximately 19 June 1944 or D+5, after that it appears to have gone to B Sqn. Sadly, not all Canadian units kept meticulous war diaries with annexes and addendums, 6 CAR was one of those units. But we are piecing together little by little. One hell of a puzzle.
You had my juices flowing, did I miss something??? I have a variety of sizes of the Lee on Solent photo. I have one that will print up to 11x14 and the definition is incredible. Sadly no tactical symbol on the back of the turret basket. But did find the Regimental number in an area we had not touched yet. We suspect that the suspension system was replaced throughout and not all at once, but that is yet to be confirmed or denied. I'm looking for any Sherman in Canadian service front view with the tac symbols on.
