The attacks on Cristot (10th to 17th June 1944)

"The Canadians, with 114 fatal casualties, were no harder hit than the British forces on their flanks. The 51st Division’s 5th Black Watch Regt. lost practically an entire company “in point of fact every man in the leading platoon died with his face to the foe” at Bréville and the divisional history is merciless in its condemnation of the “hastily arranged” attacks. The 50th Div. and 7th Armoured at Villers-Bocage had also suffered severe losses. "

https://legionmagazine.com/en/2011/02/a-well-entrenched-enemy-army-part-92/

 

Thanks "Canuck" - any idea of the German losses noted by the Canadians there? Or is there a thread yet for "The battle for Le Mesnil-Patry"?

There are some numbers quoted on wiki here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Le_Mesnil-Patry
Which "wiki suggest" a heavy defeat in material but in terms of attrition / men something more comparable (but still obviously tragic ) there.

I've been looking at this animation of the allied line of control during the Normandy Campaign : http://www3.sympatico.ca/angels_eight/campaign.html

...and I have to admit I'd rather have had "Cherbourg" too (and no big enemy armies to my rear) before going too far into the questionables of the "bandit" territories there : http://www.kingsacademy.com/mhodges/03_The-World-since-1900/07_World-War-Two/pictures/WIK_D-Day-Allied-Invasion-Force.jpg

It's interesting that the old adage about the difficulties of attacking uphill seem to hold true and a lot of the country that the British were facing seemed particularly to favour defence (and the tide soon turned when the Germans in their turn tried to advance over the same terrain).

The tactic perhaps of "charging in" was employed in order to keep the German armour static and entrenched as the allies didn't want it preparing to move forwards or west. A lot of time taken for planning and on the spot thought might have given the entrenched Germans even more of an advantage there (though obviously not necessarily so as if the Germans had themselves attacked and the allies had defended the same gound - since the allies might have then had the same strategic advantage there).

Building the advanced landing ground airfields for evac and close air support and ensuring supplies matched demand and were prioritised for where they were needed best - as well as realising that a lot of the troops on the front line had been in action and under shelling for weeks (not to mention the horrors of the opposed landing and the time out at sea - just facing it - as well) would have put strains on anyone. I have heard that some of the orders suggested that these troops were expected to face 80-90% casualties or worse. A lot of the Germans in Normandy (up until the bombardment/invasion) almost seem to have been having a holiday there (at least many of them said that they preferred it to the Eastern Front).

If you hit a hard place you can either keep banging your head against it - or choose to go around it - I guess. Doing both is also an option, but I know which of the two I'd far rather be tasked to do and which one might have been more likely to succeed

All the best,

Rm.

 

The total Canadian casualties for this day were 80 for the 6th Armoured Regiment and 99 for the Queen's Own Rifles. A total of 179. The fatal casualties being 59 and 55 respectively.

German Losses: 2nd Battalion 26th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment had 2 officers, 1 NCO and 15 men killed; 6 NCOs and 26 men wounded and 1 man missing. The Pioneer Battalion lost 1 officer, 1 NCO and 27 men killed; 1 officer (the Medical Officer), 3 NCOs and 45 men wounded, along with 5 men missing. Prinz's 2nd Battalion 12th Panzer Regiment lost 1 man killed, 7 wounded, 1 officer and 4 men missing. Total German casualties 189.

The attack was thus put in at very short notice and with less careful preparation than would have been desirable, particularly in respect of artillery support. Much has been said about the apparent lack of speed and drive among the British/Canadian units. However, Le Mesnil Patry demonstrates that hastily arranged attacks, with insufficient reconnaissance, against prepared positions usually resulted in a debacle.

 

Thanks "Canuck" !

Interestingly I've tracked down a map of the Advanced landing ground (ALG) that was subsequently built at Cristot and it's in the fields south east of Cristot, south-west of Le Mesnil Patry and north east of the Boislonde and almost due north of Fontenay. It is almost exactly at the point where the arrows of the initial allied advance on your map of post #63 converge. When you think of it their attacks all seem to be pointed towards an initial objective of a big field of open space.
When you look on the recon from the 24th June 1944 it's the area (track scuffed and cratered) in the SE quarter below:
[sharedmedia=gallery:images:28237]

A late thought on my part by the way was to look to see if the events at Le Mesnil Patry were the subject of thought re. wargames, and there's a scenario I found here: - http://www.fireandfury.com/scenarios/bloodhonourmesnilpatry.pdf

Which pdf it might be worth a read and comments made?

The pdf doesn't explain the reason for the sudden change of plan : "but in the early hours of this morning Major General Rod Keller advanced the timings in response to a decision taken by General Miles Dempsey at a conference yesterday" - unless it was due to yet more pressure "from" above (i.e. Dempsey? or above?) for "yet more speed - and to keep pressing on" ?

But there is quite a big Select Bibliography (Listed alphabetically by author) at the end associated with this:
‘The Panzers and the Battle of Normandy’ – Georges Bernage
‘Orders of Battle – Waffen SS Panzer Units in Normandy 1944’ – M. Wood & J. Dugdale
‘Overlord’ – Max Hastings ‘Six Armies in Normandy’ – John Keegan
‘Panzers in Normandy, 1944’ – Eric Lefèvre
‘Grenadier’ – Kurt Meyer
‘Steel Inferno – I SS Panzer Corps in Normandy’ – Michael Reynolds
‘Normandy 1944 – German Military Organisation, Combat Power & Organisational Effectiveness’ – Niklas Zetterling

(None of which I've yet had a chance to read (where does the time go!))

All the best,

Rm.

 

Not quite the story.

2nd CAB tank states for the night of 11/06/44 show 13 tanks as repairable under 24 hours and 37 KO/fit in over 24 hours. This is the number of 1st Hussar losses at Mesnil and Fort Garry Horse at Rots. It is not even the total of destroyed tanks. Of the 37 listed with major repairs some would be put back into service. The claim 1st Hussars lost 37 tanks is in every account of the engagement but it simply is not correct. At least 6 Pz IV are shown as destroyed on 11/06/44 and to that you must add Panther losses. To compare directly with Canadian 'losses' you would need the number of damaged German tanks.
You should always check the numbers!

 

Only two tanks of an overstrength B squadron of 21 tanks got back.
First Hussars Losses reported 0600 hrs 12 June 25 Shermans Ko/more than 24 hours to repair and 3 Vc, ditto.
Thus 28 tanks lost.
8 officers and 47 OR killed with 6 still missing
Tanks were crewed by flesh and blood, every time a tank was knocked out, on average one man was killed and another wounded.
There is another account here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Armoured-Campaign-Normandy-June-August-1944/dp/0750962704

The operation was mounted hurriedly to support Operation Perch and the advance of 7th Armoured Division towards Villers Bocage.
Simonds and Keller were no doubt responding to hurried orders from Montgomery and Dempsey.

 

Thanks Pak75....

Another one for the list / bookshelf I guess.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Armoured-Campaign-Normandy-June-August-1944/dp/0750962704

Fb seems to suggest he's perhaps an Englishman living in Australia?
https://www.facebook.com/snapier1961/info/?tab=page_info

From which I quote: "I am a keen amateur historian and have studied Churchill and WWII for more than 30 years. I contribute regularly to WWII internet forums. A mad golfer and sailor, I am married with two children. An Englishman now living in Australia."

So I clearly I can't judge a book from its cover

My first thought was to wonder why there was a German tank on the cover? Though as the reviews don't tend to suggest that it primarily focuses on the German side it might just be "unbiased" account and publishers thought that that was a picture that was an apt Normandy cover.

One wonders how many German tanks were so openly exposed! I'm guessing though that this wasn't one that got away???

Rm.

 

This thread is 3 1/2 years old, so I don't know if anyone is still interested, BUT, it is the 75th anniversary of the 1/4 KOYLI attack on Cristot/Christot on Sunday 16th June. I'm live tweeting my father's memoirs that describe the attack. It will be here if anyone is interested:

Lewis Keeble MC (@KeebleKOYLI) | Twitter

David

 

I've been following your tweets David , thanks for posting them.

 

Thanks - there's also going to be a lot for tomorrow 25th June for the 75th Anniversary of Operation Martlet - I'll put a message on the Fontenay thread a bit later....

 

Re. Cristot my grandfather (Sgt Ben Symes - 1st Troop of "C" Squadron 24th Lancers" wrote this, in his small notebook/diary at the time:

15th June 1944 - "Prepared tanks for the job. Mr.Thomas* troop leader."

16th June 1944 - "Moved out at 10am to take Cristot. HE heavy mortars leave Cristot a nasty village to take, Moved back at 8pm. very hungry and tired.

* Prior to this the 1st Troop of "C" Squadron 24th Lancers, had been led by Lt.Hawkins, but Lt.Hawkins, it seems, had been wounded in the arm when his tank was hit, a few days before, so it looks like Lt.Thomas might have been seconded from "A" squadron 24th L to "C" perhaps at this stage.

Re. Lieutenant Evan Roland (Tommy) Thomas (Ex 24th Lancer - A squadron)
24th Lancers - Roll of Honour

 

Ref. p130: Military Training in the British Army, 1940-1944



Ref: #3 : Ibid. p261: Immediate Report No.6, "Capture of Cristot (8770) by one bn supported by one sqn tanks on 16 June 44:, 17 June 1944, CAB 106/963; and CRO No.45 (8 July 1944), Section 2.

 

A short account of the operations of 6th Bn GREEN HOWARDS 6 - 27 Jun 44

Title: A short account of the operations of 6th Bn GREEN HOWARDS 6 - 27 Jun 44
Description: 6 Bn. Green Howards: account of operations, 1944 June
Source: UK_National_Archive Reference WO 223/31

Has...

"Sunday 11 June was not a good day for 6th Green Howards. The 8th Armoured Brigade with 1 Dorsets and 8 D.L.I under command had pushed forward towards TILLY against opposition which seemed small in numbers but determined. 8 D.L.I. had been driven out of TILLY by a counter-attack the country was exceptionally thick with high hedges on banks, deep ditches, belts of trees and standing corn. During the morning I was sent for to meet the Brigade Commander and to go to H.Q. 8 Armoured Brigade. 69 Brigade were to cross the railway and secure the left flank of the armour while linking up with tired Canadians at PUTOT on DESIN. Armoured patrols, a squadron of Shermans at a time, had pushed forward into the thick country towards CRISTOT meeting much small arms fire and some determined men with sticky bombs. It was not known how strong the enemy were; but they appeared to be in strength including amour at PONTENAY on the road CAEN - TILLY. 6th Green Howards were to occupy a position in the CRISTOT area.
The Colonel of the 4/7 Dragoon Guards, who was out on recce in that area, was more than helpful on his return. His regiment were to support the Bn in their attack with artillery support from the Essex Yeomanry and two batteries 90th Fd.B company 2 Cheshires were available if they could be used. 4/7 Dragoon Guards did not underrate the opposition; but they could naturally not give sufficient information of enemy locations to make out a complete artillery support programme. After a hurried recce and conference in country where you could hardly see a field the plan was made for an attack on a two-company front with one squadron in support of the leading companies, one squadron moving with the reserve companies and the remaining squadron ready to escort up the support weapons of the Bn to their objective. The guns were to fire on known enemy targets and one hedge ahead of the advance. In this thick country a lane passing through a farm called Les Hauts Vents was chosen as the Bn axis.
The enemy waited until the tanks had passed before they opened up on 13 company on the right. This company had fairly heavy casualties, but largely owing to the efforts of the Coy Comd, who walked about the fields in full view of the enemy with total disregard for his own safety they pushed on until the company commander, 2 i/c and several N.C.Os were casualties. ‘C' company on the left were also pinned by short range spandau fire. The company commander C.S.M. and one officer were killed and another officer wounded. 'A' company were ordered to move round the right of E company and D company to clear the axis up to Less Haunts Vents. Largely owing to the brilliant leadership of the Coy Comd, A company got to within a field of the objective. There, their supporting tanks came under heavy fire and the squadron leader lost his tank. B company joined up with A company, but the two companies were temporarily cut off. D company forced their way up the axis supported by tanks, took 25 - 30 prisoners of war in Les Hauts Vents and joined up with A company. This helped C company to get on. The position was now that the Bn was together one field short of its objective with heavy M.G. and anti-tank gun fire in front. In the meantime an attack by Mark VI tanks had developed behind us on the position of 8 Armoured Brigade. These tanks were almost across our axis. I ordered the Bn. to reorganise where it was and sent for the supporting weapons to come up. But losses in officers and N.C.Os. had been heavy; there was considerable sniping; 4/7 were losing tanks. The Brigade Commander told me that I could use my discretion about; withdrawal. I ordered the Bn to withdraw and sent word to the 2 i/c to recce positions further back in consultation with the Brigade Commander and O.C. 5 East Yorks.
The Bn. withdrew in good order leaving behind about eight men, wounded in enemy hands. Positions were taken up as recced by the 2 i/c. 8 armoured Brigade were still being attacked and occasional shells were landing in the Bn. area. At 0400 hours orders were received to move to a defensive position North of the railway at AUDRIEUX."

 

Cristot - 70 Brigade

Has some pictures including...



And...

 

Map from CAB 106/963 - 11d6m1944...

 

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/battle-of-normandy/cities/cristot

Has...

Cristot (Calvados)
The cities of Normandy during the 1944 battles
Liberation: June 16, 1944
Deployed units:
Drapeau anglais 61st Reconnaissance Regiment, 50th Infantry Division
Drapeau anglais 4th/7th Dragoons Guard, 8th Armoured Brigade (Independent)
Drapeau anglais 6th Battalion Green Howards Regiment, 69th Infantry Brigade, 50th Infantry Division
Drapeau anglais 7th Battalion Green Howards Regiment, 69th Infantry Brigade, 50th Infantry Division
Drapeau anglais 1/4th Battalion The King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, 146th Infantry Brigade, 49th Infantry Division
Drapeau anglais Royal Engineers 13th Airfield Construction Group
Drapeau nazi S.S.-Panzeraufklärungs-Lehr-Abteilung 130, Panzer Lehr Division
Drapeau nazi S.S.-Aufklärungsabteilung 12, 12. S.S. Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
Drapeau nazi S.S.-Panzergrenadierregiment 26, 12. S.S. Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
History:
On 8 June 1944 in the evening, the 8th Armored Brigade of the 50th Infantry Division attempted to seize Cristot but without success.
On the morning of June 9, 1944, the front appeared to be stabilizing southwest of Bayeux along the railway line. Yet, on one side as well as the other, the offensives multiply to break the line of the adversary. The Germans aim at the sea, the British Villers-Bocage.
On June 11, at 2:30 pm, the 8th Armored Brigade and the 69th Infantry Brigade launched a new offensive in the direction of Cristot and Saint-Pierre. The British criss-cross Cristot by the west and infiltrate through a terrain unfavorable to the armored vehicles. The 6th Battalion Green Howards Regiment fell back at Audrieu’s height: the two unit commanders of “A” and “C” companies and the deputy officer of “B” company were killed during the offensive, the captain commanding “B” company is wounded. For its part, the 4th/7th Dragoons Guard lost 7 tanks.
As of 15 June, the Germans began to retreat from their units in the Cristot sector. On the night of the 15th to the 16th of June, they recovered to the south at the level of the departmental 9 between Saint-Manvieu-Norrey and Fontenay-le-Pesnel. The Allies realized the situation and decided to launch an attack at the same time: the 49th English infantry division was in charge of seizing the commune of Cristot. From 15 June to 23:00 until 16:00 at 04:00, the Allies carry out a continuous artillery fire in order to prevent their opponent from sleeping. A few hours before the beginning of the offensive planned for noon, the warships bombard the land between Brouay and Cristot; A quarter of an hour before the assault, they are fighter-bombers targeting the Germans still in the area.
Early in the afternoon, it was the 1/4th Battalion that captured Brouay without fighting. The King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry belonged to the 49th Infantry Division. The village is completely destroyed.
Starting July 20, 1944, the engineers of the Royal Engineers 13th Airfield Construction Group began construction work on the B-18 coded aerodrome south of Cristot. This advanced landing ground is operational from 25 July 1944.

 

There's a bit here... primarily about the 11th June 1944...

2nd Koy 12th SS Aufklarung Abt - Feldgrau.net

and...

2nd Koy 12th SS Aufklarung Abt - Page 2 - Feldgrau.net

Also I saw on Fb...

#DDay77 17 juin 1944 : des soldats de la 49th (GB) Infantry Division dans le village de Cristot, totalement détruit par l'aviation alliée ainsi que son armada.
#OTD June 17, 1944: soldiers of the 49th (GB) Infantry Division in the village of Cristot, totally destroyed by the allied air force and the armada.

https://www.dday-overlord.com
#Normandie #DDay #Cristot #Histoire #SGM #2GM #WW2 #Normandy

I found the phrasing a little curious though, although the damage may have been in very large part caused by the allies there were allied casualties there, though perhaps these were due to mines, boobytraps and snipers ? Although I thought too once the allies were in the vicinity the Germans sent in their own mortars and HE rounds etc. ?

 

There's also this for example...

BBC - WW2 People's War - From Normandy to Holland by Bren Carrier (Part 1)

With...
"After a short time in the line, we were given the next objective, which was the taking of Cristot (16th June 44). My section was allocated to ‘B’ Company, and positions of defence were taken whilst we awaited further orders. The company was under heavy fire from the Germans, whilst Colonel Walker our battalion commander was viewing the enemy area. He gave all the leaders information on how it was going to be dealt with. 'B’ company was positioned in line, well concealed waiting for instructions. Col. Walker positioned himself forward in the centre of the forward line. My carrier section was to the left of him.
Our supporting artillery started firing and Col. Walker gave the signal to move forward. As we moved forward with the Colonel German artillery started firing at us, all hell was let loose. The Colonel was great giving orders as we moved, shouting at people to keep moving. I was moving on foot to direct my carrier by the routes with cover. We had heavy losses whilst moving despite good support from our own artillery. It was a miracle to get through, due in no small measure to the encouragement given the men by the way Col. Walker led us, without him we would have been wiped out. I passed several who had been hit by shrapnel, we couldn't stop to help them, quite a few of them died as the firing settled down. I got my carriers into safer areas and left the drivers to camouflage them."

Which does have the British being fired upon - just hopefully it wasn't "friendly fire" etc. Although such did occur.

They at least seemed to think that it was the Germans firing on them...

It's difficult to square with all of the damage to Cristot having been 'done by the allies' in the taking of the village - particularly if as Meyer claims he had already ordered his forces to withdraw... in order to create that "void" into which he hoped to "fire" once "the void" was occupied by the allies...

It's "covered" here... on pages 244-6...

The 12th SS

But it's quite hard to assess there the degree of resistance that the Germans were able or intending to give...

The description is that the British had entered a "void" that the Germans had just left... although there were plenty of mines and boobytraps, plus I'm assuming that the Germans' artillery returned fire with mortars and HE (high explosives). References are seen to German tanks, but they are seen "in the distance" and/or possibly moving away.

 

Stuart Hills ( "C" Squadron, SRY) in "By tank into Normandy" also references fighting in and around Cristot, this time on the 17th June 1944... and Boislonde etc 18th June 1944...

Various refs. for example via Google with...

"Stuart Hills" and "Cristot" etc.

And Patrick Delaforce - p153 - here....

Monty s Marauders

Has... "Unfortunately a very large friendly DF stonk damaged the SRY more than the enemy" on the 18th June 1944.

 

https://www.alexautographs.com/auct...the-12th-ss-hitlerjugend-division_63E47E9B34/



Description:
Historic Normandy campaign battle map prepared by for the Panzer Pionier battalion of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" in advance of the Canadian attack to take le Mesnil-Patry, Normandy on June 11, 1944. The 24" x 16" map is based on a red blueprint showing le Mesnil-Patry at center top, with Cristot to the west and Norry-en-Bessin to the east. There are many hand-drawn additions to the printed map as well. The three towns all have heavy artillery emplacements to the south and east. Le Mesnil-Patry also has grenade launchers embedded within the artillery, and various buildings in the town, including the church, have been razed for defensive purposes. There are various defensive positions and barbed wire emplacements in the streets as well. South of town there is a long defensive line comprised of anti-tank gun emplacements and machine gun nests, most hidden behind lines of trees or within small woods. The map, well-used and with marginal tears and losses, bears a period pencil note on the verso claiming it was taken from the body of Knights Cross recipient Siegfried Muller, though this attribution is incorrect and probably a matter of an overanxious Canadian soldier confusing one "Muller" with another. A great document from an important early Normandy battle. The Battle of Le Mesnil-Patry was the last attack by an armored battle group conducted by Canadian troops in Normandy in June 1944. The attack was intended to support a larger operation by the 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division and the 7th Armored Division to capture the city of Caen and to advance in the center of the bridgehead next to the First US Army. Instead, the Canadians lost 173 killed and wounded and 51 tanks versus a German loss of 139 and 3-14 tanks. Atrocities by troops of the 12th SS-Panzer Division Hitlerjugend against Canadian prisoners occurred and orders given by a junior Canadian commander to refrain from taking German prisoners as a reprisal, were countermanded by higher authority as soon as they were discovered. ALSO INCLUDED: Cloth-covered bound notebook with ownership signature of Heinz Zufelde, a Waffen-SS soldier also with Pion. 1./SS-Pi. Btl. 12 12th SS, KIA 26.6.44 at Cheux which was just a few miles closer to Caen. This 100pp. 8vo. book, undoubtedly taken in the same action as the map, concerns maps and map symbols, trenches, mine emplacement, etc., with four or five pages of poetry at the rear of the book. In all practicality, as both pieces originated from the same source, Zufelde may have possessed the map offered here when he was killed. Two pieces.