Photos of 169th Brigade, 56th Division in Iraq and Tunisia?

Hello,

I am looking for verifiable photographs of 169th brigade of the 56th Division in Iraq and Tunisia 1943. The units were 2/5,2/6,2/7 Queens Royal Regiment and support units. I have some of 2/6 Queens in Enfidaville Tunisia April 1943. I will post below.

 

What for?

F

 

Research into what they wore uniform and equipment wise in Iraq and into Tunisia. Their appearance in Tunisia is fairly unique compared to the rest of the 8th Army at the time. If your asking if I am going to use it for profit the answer is no, research purposes only.

 

Happy to help. I ask because I have a chum whose father served in the Field Ambulance that supported 169 Inf Bde and he has some photos of their time in North Africa and then Italy.

Regards

Frank

 

What are the specific differences (scrimmed helmets?) and why are they specific to 169 Brigade and not other 56 Div units?

 

Very nice posed photos. Did the 8th Army have a selection of happy soldiers on hand for the media to photograph or did the media set up shots when the fighting was over.
I'm sure that if there were any enemy around they would be moving far more cautiously ready to take cover, locate their targets and open fire.
The photographers wouldnt be in front of loaded weapons if the had any sense or battle experience. Certainly not for many seconds.
Being shot at makes one prowl like a cat stalking its prey.

 

There were a lot of post fighting photographs. The 1/6 Surreys photographs of soldiers patrolling the derelict streets of Cassino in late May 44 are all posed.

F

 

I cannot determine that as I do not have other photos to compare yet. My comment on them being unique to the time frame is that they were in KD. Most of the 8th were still wearing BD from winter. My hypothesis is that they wore what they had coming from Iraq because they were original set to go to Palestine prior to being diverted to Tunisia. So it is not a claim they were wildly different or that 169 was different than 167 or 8.

 

This is photographed while this unit moved to the front. This unit was brand new to Tunisia and had previously traveled from Iraq to Egypt into Tunisia. This would be right before they went into line to experience their first combat of the campaign in North Africa.

 

Okay. My Grandfather was with 6 Cheshires and I have all of his photos of the move from Iraq, through Trans-Jordan, Egypt and Tunisia. I can confirm they were definitely in KD, albeit with great coats in Iraq and Trans-Jordan.

The uniform and order will definitely be in the operational orders at brigade level.

 

Thank you for the response. Curious about their helmets. Did they have nets, were they painted if so what color? Any specific uniform notes? Was there webbing blancoed?

Are these photos published somewhere, a book possibly? Would love to see them.

 

I understand your curiosity but frankly I find it all over the top unless you are going to paint or make a model of them.
Do you really think they blanco'd belts in battle, it is like coloured chalk. It would rub off as soon as you took cover, they scrubbed the webbing although the Guards might have and some Regiments wishing to emulate them. There were often comments from the old sweats who were there saying they could tell if the Guards had been involved because you could see clean boots and gaiters sticking out from under the blankets of the dead bodies.
Brass was dulled to prevent it shining. The idea is not to be seen.
Sound, shape, shine, shadow, silhouette and movement are things to avoid if you want to survive in battle.
I am surprised if the 8th Army wore woollen BD more likely Denhim or KD. 1st Army did, changing into KD aft the end of May 1943. 8th Army had been in the desert for a long time although they were relatively new boys. Others had been there since the war began in 1939. The 8th clasp identified them by the request of Montgomery identifying them as his men but they stood out against the original colonial soldiers. My uncle was in the desert from 1941 as were many others.
I am no expert on uniform and had enough trouble wearing the right clothes post war.

 

Uncle Target,

Because I am interested in the finer details as I study uniforms and equipment for various reasons. The 8th and 1st wore wool BD in early 43 there is plenty of photographs showing this. As far as blanco the majority of units in the desert and Italy did not use it. It was not just a guard thing. However considering the 56th were in England for awhile prior to going over. I am curious if their webbing retained some blanco or not. You might not find this interesting or neccessary for discussion, but I do. Also comparing post war military experience and applying it to a view of what happened in a particular unit in WW2 is flaud. Yes I am a veteran as well.

 

These are photos taken during the road move from Iraq to Tunisia and photos in Tunisia. As they are not 'action' or 'front' photos no helmets are not seen - either bare heads or FS caps (no GS berets). They are personal family photos so I'm afraid they are not published and I don't want to post them on the forum.

 

The issue of KD/denim and BD in Italy was around April/May and October/November depending on the proximity of the unit to the front. I would probably expect this to be the same in Tunisia. I think you are correct in your view that 56 Div didn't have time to be issued BD although I would temper that by saying northern Iraq isn't exactly warm in the winter. I did see a photo of 4 Indian Div in Tunisia who also seem to be wearing KD and pullovers, similar to the Queens photos your posted.

As I say you can find references to dress codes in battalion/brigade orders and certainly in the ADMS divisional WDs. However, you won't find much on helmet colours, blanco etc unless you're very lucky with a battalion daily order.

 

Gary Tankard,

I can understand not wanting to share the photos. Thank you still for the information you have shared!

V/R
Chris

 

Here’s one anyway.

As my scanner is broken I had to take this on my iPhone. My Grandad (furthest right) had written on the back “Captured Jerry AA truck. Enfidaville, Tunisia.” I think it is actually Italian though.

As you can see everyone is in KD.

 

There was great range of weather conditions across the span of North Africa. Winter 1942-3 was bloody miserable in Algeria/Tunisia in the mountains. Winters were generally much colder in the 1940's than they are now.

 

Gary,

Thank you very much! It confirms the lack of div badge slides on the shirts. Though one looks to have them but without the badge. Also shorts in use. Thank you again for taking the time to share that.

Osborne2,

Possibly, it snowed in Baghdad in 2007 when I was there. So I think it depends on year.