WWI Influence on thinking up to and during Dunkirk

Discussion in '1940' started by Oldman, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Quote from Drew
    I keep missing the fact that WW1 was still fresh in peoples minds during the early stages of WW2. I really should consider its lasting effect more on what was happening in 1940.

    Reading Drew's post has made me think how much did WWI infuence our actual military thinking and did it effect command decisions made in 1939/1940?
     
  2. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    On the most basic level, I've always been struck by the photographs of the trenches and dugouts the BEF constructed during the Phoney War period. The look and some of the signage the soldiers made is right out of the Great War. Even much of the weaponry was the same.
    A.A. GUNS IN FRANCE aka XMAS 1939 IN TRENCHES - British Pathé
    This Pathe newsreel could be from the First World War as well.
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Oldman
    The ww1 atmosphere appears to have been caused by Churchill - and the fear he had over the CIGS - Dill - until Alanbrooke took over in late '41 - then things changed for the better - and we started to win !
    Cheers
     
  4. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Tom, you're quite right, this came up elsewhere recently; the impetus for a lot of this does seem to have come from the politicos...right into 1941 Winston and Anthony Eden were still fighting the same political/military battles and battle lines as WWI - look at the venture in Greece, nothing short of an attempt to recreate the WWI Salonika Front! :p
     
  5. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    ... (not to get drawn into your discussion WDR) I found Richard Holmes' :poppy: 2005 BBC TV spin-off book In the footsteps of Churchill to contain a decently impartial, thorough and (not least) readable warts & all analysis of this very topic - sadly missing (or maybe just too watered down to register) from the inevitably slightly-dumbed-down and eye-candied TV series IIRC. :twocents:
     
  6. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Before world war one we had land forces set up as a colonial police force equipped to fight bush wars. It was not equipped intellectually (doctrine) or with the equipment for a European continental war. The Royal Navy was the shield of steel to protect the home and assets around the world. We were shocked into action - thankfully the bravery of the smallish army along with Yeomanry and other units we slowly and expensively in treasure and blood learned the lessons. Post world war one, we went back to the colonial police role a more impoverished nation. it is understandable why politicians talked of war to end all wars. the public mood and national finances cried out for cuts in spending. It was not all politicians - the land forces (army) clung onto outdated methods. the budget for armoured warfare in 1937 still had a large slice paid out to train in equestrian courses whilst the armoured units lost out. There were of course voices warning that we were going to be caught again. The general staff of world war two, Alan Brook, Alexander, Montgomery and others had been staff college students and instructors and had talked of and worked out the methods of modern warfare. Talking was one thing equipping was another and again we paid dearly to learn the lessons. Post world war two, we still had a perceived threat and maintained an expeditionary force until the wall came down, we have since cut back to a level where we can just about field a brigade, without a prolonged expeditionary capabilty. There were also treaties on arming that we had been abiding by (more or less), No it was not all politicians at the back of the minds of senior soldiers was the slaughter still sharp and in focus, Many knew they were ill prepared and equipped. The British army was never good at allowing the unorthodox in peace time. one reason why Montgomery was never accepted by some, the fact that his methods often worked still cut no ice with some.
     
  7. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Red Goblin
    Thanks for the heads up on the book, I will follow up

    Wills
    I agree with you, I recall reading somewhere that the bill for horses forage came to more than was spent on armoured vehicles in the early thirties, also Lumsden was still along with other armoured corps/yeomanry officers using tanks like cavalry in the desert as late as 1943, Tom Canning has written a length on this matter
     
  8. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Oldman/ Wills - while I would agree with both - it has to be remembered that while we had a Colonial Force in being - when it was agreed that around 1922 - we should have more "teeth' by replacing Horses with Tanks - it was the fault of the politicos of the day which held this action back as well as the lack of funds and allowed this failure to intrude even into 1941 after some two years of all out war- Churchill and Eden with the Greece debacle- and even Turkey in 1942- Lumsden and others retaining their Balaclava attitudes
    and it took Monty until Medenine 1943 to get rid of that nonsense and final come up with the British Blitzkreig- which proved it's worth at El Hamma - Tunis and the Swan to Antwerp later on- we learn - but slowly -same as to-day as we cannot deport criminals ....
    Cheers
     
  10. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Some of them are a bit hard to find or expensive but inter library loan might help.
    TIP: Use WorldCat as per my book link above. Even The British Library links to them as a valuable resource for tracking down books - either:
    • in e-book form (e.g. Google books)
    • at various e-tailers (e.g. Amazon)
    • at your nearest holding library (provided you tell it where you are)
     
  11. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Rivalry, it may be hard to grasp now, but there was a class system within the army. oh no, I do not mean officers and men. The infantry looked upon cavalry and later armour as 'Archie the Piccadily Butchers playing silly beggars' not real war fighting. The wealthy cavalry units looked upon the infantry as some outmoded fighting unit that was good in the days of redcoats and Waterloo squares, they had seen infantry bogged down for years in mud and were convinced they would replace the PBI. Officers of the calibre of Alan Brooke a world war 1 gunnery expert and enlightened officers like Montgomery an infantry officer who bored a young lady with armoured tactics on what we would today call a date. Tom is right about politicians, however, whilst there were forward thinking officers who used the staff college to stamp out backward looking views. It still existed in the minds of some - Tom also rightly points out that until Montgomery took over and made changes- basic battlefield tactics -the air element was not in the Tac HQ of 8th Army! The same principle which showed that army air co-operation something that had been in existence was still not in the minds of fighting commanders. It took time to get the army to co-operate with it's own units let alone the one fighting team under one commander doctrine of the new commanders. The 'Bowler hat' awarded to those who could not or would not change.
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Wills

    I recall an old friend of mine - a Colonel who was fired by Monty and always started his after dinner speeches by quoting his Army Commanders annual report - "No man should follow this Officer - even out of curiosity " Monty had a tremendous sense of humour
    but could do little to solve the Air co-operation problem until - again near Medenine-
    when Tedder - Conningham and the US Brereton flew the coop to Algiers and he then fired Lumsden and Harry Broadhurst was allowed to come up with the "Cab-Rank" air support- then we really got going
    cheers
     
  13. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    I came across the quote attributed to Montgomery - 'God once said - and I agree with him!'
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Belgium remained neutral right to the very last minute because of what happened in WW1 to her. It was glaringly obvious (perhaps hindsight) the Germans were not going to respect her neutrality but she held on in the hope it wouldn't happen despite continuous pleas from the British and French governments to let troops in to the country and protect her.

    The French built the Maginot line off the back of WW1 which by all but bankrupt the country and if nothing else was a massive financial burden on the country pre WW2.

    Whilst the BEF did dig and build defences...Thank God they did. I'm not sure all the tactics were still of the WW1 training manuals.

    The BEF for starters were the only completely mechanised army in France and Flanders in 1940 and much is made of Montgomery training his Division in France during the 'Phoney War' to be able to move at night and move well. That stood 3 Div in good stead during May as virtually all moves by the BEF towards Dunkirk were conducted in the dark due to a lack of air superiority and a big fear of the Luftwaffe, particulary the Stuka.

    The Politics side I can't really comment on as its not a area I'm all the clued up on. But if they were of the thought of defend in trenches then why did they rush into Belgium to meet the Germans on the 10th May.

    I think a lot of the Trench Digging that is scene in footage and photographs taken between Sept 39 and April 40 is on the Saar Front where troops were sent to get combat experience. I can't say I have come across many WW2 trench systems in France built by the BEF...I've found plenty of Blockhouses though.

    Anyone got a copy of any Infantry training manuals for the end of WW1 and 1939? I suspect they will be completely different.
     
  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    One Major BL Montgomery was tasked to write the new manual, Once he was happy with his efforts,he asked for comments and characteristically ignored most of them!
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    On the most basic level, I've always been struck by the photographs of the trenches and dugouts the BEF constructed during the Phoney War period. The look and some of the signage the soldiers made is right out of the Great War. Even much of the weaponry was the same.
    A.A. GUNS IN FRANCE aka XMAS 1939 IN TRENCHES - British Pathé
    This Pathe newsreel could be from the First World War as well.

    Just a couple of points on the video-Pathe tends to get the 1940 descriptions wrong. Whilst it is obviously very cold I suspect its not Christmas - There is no snow on the ground. Also the 3.7" AA guns are just sited in Gun Pits with a Command Post so not really trenches as we know them from WW1. I'm not a Arty expert but I'm sure they were building smiliar for large guns throughout the war if they had time.

    There was only Nine HAA Regiments in France when it was cold enough for this to be filmed-shame we can't ID them.
     
  17. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Again Junior NCO training was one of Montgomery's ideas


    Any ideas when ? I only ask as the Germans put a lot of emphasise on NCO's and Junior Officers making decisions on the Battlefield in 1940. I wonder if he got it from them?
     
  19. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Not got the Hamilton books out of storage! (1925 ish) It was when he was a company commander back with his regiment. He was not impressed with some of the senior NCOs and the fact that they had been promoted on time served. New ideas again! NCOs cadre courses, minor tactics and signalling. Promotion exams and putting a stop to time served. It can easily be imagined that the sergeants' mess were soon producing fig 11 targets with one BL Montgomery as the target. Many for the rest of their lives would not go to regimental reunions if they knew he was attending. It should be appreciated that not all units went along with this, he was getting a bit of name for himself. It was reported by one brigade commander that he did not want Montgomery on his staff during an exercise, he keeps telling me where I am going wrong!


    Montgomery wrote often to the Regimental Journal of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment - 'The Antelope' and equally often getting an 'Imperial Rocket' for suggesting the army was - a tad less than efficient in some areas. 'Mr Popular' he was not. A few years back I found some of these articles in the journal - now I cannot find them!



    In 1930 the War Office selected Montgomery to re-write the manual of Infantry Training, a sure sign that his fame was spreading. Promoted Lieutenant Colonel, he took command of the 1st Royal Warwickshires and moved with them to Palestine and later, Egypt. Montgomery was then posted as Colonel and Chief Instructor to the Staff College, Quetta.

    Trying to find: Infantry Training Part 1 - The Infantry Battalion
    ditto : Infantry Training Part VIII Fieldcraft and Battle drills.
     

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