german soldiers

hi,

sorry for starting on such a heavy topic but i was wondering if any of the forum members had any thoughts and theories on why the average german soldier participated in the mass slaughter of jews during the war? it is something that has also perplexed me as these young germans must have had soem doubts in what they were doing as i guess they would have been normal everyday men before the war living and working alongside many of the people that they came to round up and destroy. again sorry for the heavyiness of this topic i would just be interested in any thoughts

herman

 

Just a quick point. The average German soldier didn't participate in the mass slaughter of Jews during the war. He fought as well and as bravely as any other nations soldiers (sometimes better), in, what he believed was the defence of his family, his home and his way of life.

The only way your "average" soldier participated was in the fact that the government of the country that he represented and defended did such things.

Of course there were individuals and units who participated in "war-crimes" of various degrees (as there were in most of the allied armies too!), but I don't class these as your "average" german soldier.

B.

 

hi,

i do apologise if i offended anybody with the remark about the average german soldier. the point i was trying to get across was within the third reich and the army were the soldiers in complete support of hitler or did they belive that they were doing their duty as soldiers for germany?, i should have worded the original question with a little more subtlety!

herman

 

Just a quick point. The average German soldier didn't participate in the mass slaughter of Jews during the war.

They DID.

Remember that the mass murders of Jews didn't only took place in Auschwitz or Belsen with gas chambers. During the brutal fight in the eastern front the German Army was heavily involved in deporting and mass-murdering Jews. In fact, the SS special commandos —Einsatzgruppen— were so small and covered such an extense front that Army MP and regular units had to help them in their tasks of murdering communists, Gypsies and Jews. Field marshal Walther von Reichenau —commander of the VI Army— actually encouraged his soldiers towards fighting the "Judeo-Bloshevist conspiracy to destroy Germany and the Western world" and the same did colonel general Hermann Hoth and many other outstanding generals such as Guderian, Von Kluge, Von Manstein and Von Leeb. Or at least there are papers with their signatures which prove this.

Nazism was not enforced brutally upon German people. That's a cheap myth. The Germans not only shut up about very well-known attrocities, but applauded them and often contributed to it.

And as far as the average German soldier regarded in WWII, Jews were parasites, sub-humans who had betrayed Germany during the last war and wanted to destroy Germany and Western Europe. That's why average infantry men gladly participated in arresting Jews, shooting POWs, partisans, etc. Not only SS men.

(as there were in most of the allied armies too!)

The Western Allies did not burn civilians alive inside a church, did not shoot POWs by the thousands nor arrested nazi civil-servants and summarily shoot them.

 

Originally posted by Friedrich H@Apr 20 2004, 01:40 PM
(as there were in most of the allied armies too!)

The Western Allies did not burn civilians alive inside a church, did not shoot POWs by the thousands nor arrested nazi civil-servants and summarily shoot them. Mass rapings and murder of German civilians, beatings and murders of German POWs, deaths through mistreatment, exposure and malnourishment by our "comrades" in the East.

Mass-murders of German POW's behind the beaches by Canadians in Normandy.

Battalion orders basically authorising the murder of POWs and the non-taking of prisoners issued by certain US units in the Ardennes. Orders which were carried out by some.

Unauthorised "Executions" of Japanese POWs taking place in Burma by certain British and British affiliated units.

There's a list of 4 of the Allied nations who have taken part in atrocities. Shall I continue?

War brings out the worst in a lot of people, Friedrich. I should know - been there, seen it, done it!

B.

 

Originally posted by Friedrich H@Apr 20 2004, 01:40 PM
That's why average infantry men gladly participated in arresting Jews, shooting POWs, partisans, etc. Not only SS men.

...and what was the alternative if they didn't? Of all the accounts of the "ordinary" (as opposed to SS, Polizei,Sonderkommandos and Einsatzgruppen,etc) soldiers who took part in these operations, not many were happy doing it. Also, when the size of the German Army is considered, it was only a comparatively small percentage of it that was involved in these operations (often with the same men being called upon time after time).

B.

 

Mass rapings and murder of German civilians, beatings and murders of German POWs, deaths through mistreatment, exposure and malnourishment by our "comrades" in the East.

Did you actually read my post when I clearly said Western Allies? The USSR is out of question. It was fighting for its very existance and was ruled by a régime equal or worse than Hitler's.

Mass-murders of German POW's behind the beaches by Canadians in Normandy.

These POWs were part of the 12th SS Panzer division... those damned fanatic kids started killing the Canadians first.

Battalion orders basically authorising the murder of POWs and the non-taking of prisoners issued by certain US units in the Ardennes. Orders which were carried out by some.

One word: Malmédy. And more words: Otto Skorzeny and his English-speaking, disguised commandos...

Unauthorised "Executions" of Japanese POWs taking place in Burma by certain British and British affiliated units.

Remember Bataan's death march? Remember some 35.000 British, Australian and other Allied soldiers starved and worked to death in the building of the Malayan railroad ways?

All that is not comparable to the occassional crimes of the Western Allies. Yes, they did some attrocities, but of kind, nature and scale completely uncomparable to those of their enemies and their big red ally.

You're right, war brings out the worst of everyone. But have to keep it in context.

 

...and what was the alternative if they didn't?

The senior generals had indeed the oportunity of publicly refusing to carry out some attrocities. At the time, the only thing that could have been made to them was sack them and force retirement on some. Marshal Von Bock openly refused to carry out the 'Comissar Order' and he kept his post. Colonel general Von Kleist refused to carry out Hitler's orders about the treatment of the sub-humans in the summer offensive of 42 and he kept his post and was even promoted to field marshal months later.

There is NO excuse for them, officers or enlisted men. Whether they wanted to do it or not, whether they regreted it or not, they DID it. And the people they killed is not going back from the dead because of it.

The fact that Germany was under the most terrifying and most efficient Police State ever tends to bring misconceptions, such as "the Germans murdered Jews because they had no option". Maybe that's right, but they didn't do it reluctantly. They did it gladly. And certainly the average foot soldier in the eastern front didn't feel the less remorse when killing a Jew, a comissar or a partisan.

Luftwaffe's pilots and aces are always considered as gentlemen and air knights who even opposed the régime —Galland's anti-Göring plot—, but there were cases when pilots shot Jewish workers at the airfields for fun, celebrating their 100th victory.

And I opnely tell you this: my grandfather is still living and I love him, but in the war he was no different from these other men, who comitted horrible attrocities. And there's no way of justifying them. No, there isn't.

 

I've talked with several ex German WW2 soldiers and the main theme behind their participation in the killing of civilians is that if they refused, they were shot on the spot by their officers and their families sent to oblivion. Not a nice choice to have to make for sure but as has been said war reduces humans to a basic level and brings out not only the best but also the worst in people.

 

I've talked with several ex German WW2 soldiers and the main theme behind their participation in the killing of civilians is that if they refused, they were shot on the spot by their officers and their families sent to oblivion. Not a nice choice to have to make for sure but as has been said war reduces humans to a basic level and brings out not only the best but also the worst in people.

This is not entirely true. Many, many officers did oposse in participating in these executions during the first two years of the war against the USSR.

German soldiers were not summarily shot during the first 4 years of the war. That almost never happened. After the Jult 20th attempt on Hitler's life, might be a different thing, when brutality was an everyday's matter.

 

CROONAERT
Quote:

Originally posted by Friedrich H@Apr 20 2004, 01:40 PM
Quote:
(as there were in most of the allied armies too!)
The Western Allies did not burn civilians alive inside a church, did not shoot POWs by the thousands nor arrested nazi civil-servants and summarily shoot them.

Mass rapings and murder of German civilians, beatings and murders of German POWs, deaths through mistreatment, exposure and malnourishment by our "comrades" in the East.

Mass-murders of German POW's behind the beaches by Canadians in Normandy.

Battalion orders basically authorising the murder of POWs and the non-taking of prisoners issued by certain US units in the Ardennes. Orders which were carried out by some.

Unauthorised "Executions" of Japanese POWs taking place in Burma by certain British and British affiliated units.

There's a list of 4 of the Allied nations who have taken part in atrocities. Shall I continue?

War brings out the worst in a lot of people, Friedrich. I should know - been there, seen it, done it!
B.

Then if you have been there and done it ?the first thing I ask is. Where? Did you take part in the battles?
We fought alongside the Canadians, So where did this story of murdering German soldiers come from. Anything that happened on the British Canadian front soon got around. I know nothing about that story, where is the truth?

That the German army killed and murdered civilians is a well proven fact. What makes the defence of these murderers farcical, is that the German army belt had the Logo "God With Us" in a circle on their silver belt buckle. So presumably they not only murdered and tortured, but they did it with their Gods help?

It is my opinion that despite all the things that happend in Germany after the occupation. Considering what they did....They got off comparitively light.
Folk tend to forget the terrible things they got up to when they were winning. It was only after the Sword of Damacles hung over their heads that started to complain about the way they were treated,

AS to the Germans not supporting Hitler. Well that is just about as daft a suggestion that I have heard. They turned out in their millions to scream
Sieg Heil and stuck their stupid arms out like massed automatons.

To try to paint the German army in an innocent white cloak is to insult the memor of the millions they slaughtered.

That they paid a price for their deeds ? TOUGH! I had the priveledge of seeing the "Falaise Pocket" first hand. Now some inside there did pay the price for Hitlers ambitions.
Sapper.

 

Then if you have been there and done it ?the first thing I ask is. Where? Did you take part in the battles?

Answered above in Owen's post (though I don't thank him for mentioning it!:p ),mainly 1992, and "yes".

We fought alongside the Canadians, So where did this story of murdering German soldiers come from. Anything that happened on the British Canadian front soon got around. I know nothing about that story, where is the truth?

Not everything got around then! There can be found references to this (and other occurances) in various sources, both German and canadian. Another case was given to me by an uncle who was RAF groundcrew in Normandy and witnessed it first hand (and took some "souvenirs" which are now in my possession). Another uncle (a MP by this time) quite openly admitted "dispatching" 4 officers personally. These stories came out after the war - it wasn't quite the done thing to sit around a cuppa saying "have you had a good day, what've you been up to?"...."oh, not bad. murdered a couple of unarmed prisoners 'coz I didn't like one of their moustaches". Come on Brian, you were there, you know the score.

That the German army killed and murdered civilians is a well proven fact. What makes the defence of these murderers farcical, is that the German army belt had the Logo "God With Us" in a circle on their silver belt buckle. So presumably they not only murdered and tortured, but they did it with their Gods help?

I don't quite see what an item of uniform with a design that practically goes back 100 years at that time has to do with anything, nor religion, but the SS and some other units didn't have any mention of "God" on them.

It is my opinion that despite all the things that happend in Germany after the occupation. Considering what they did....They got off comparitively light.

You really do hate the whole German nation ,don't you, Brian?:mellow:

AS to the Germans not supporting Hitler. Well that is just about as daft a suggestion that I have heard. They turned out in their millions to scream
Sieg Heil and stuck their stupid arms out like massed automatons.

Not all did. (but when did I say that?)

To try to paint the German army in an innocent white cloak is to insult the memor of the millions they slaughtered.

I never have done, but, as I'm sure you know (?), no army in any war is completely made up of angellic types fighting for peace, honour and justice (and, believe it or not Brian,not even the British army!).

Dave

 

When I read this I am quite amazed ....So you sit round say "Oh yes I shot a couple! Or that a ground crew was involved. Ground Crew mate?? You are joking? I hope. They never came within miles of the action.
I can also tell you that had a British or Canadian army killed a prisoner his feet would not have touched the ground before he would be field arrested.

What gives you fellows the idea that we killed prisoners. It just goes to show how very little you know about the British or Canadian armies. The way you write , it sounds like a lot of boys all boasting my dad is bigger than your dad. Its rubbish we did not shoot anyone once they were taken prisoner.
The British armies have discipline. Shooting prisoners is not on nor ever was, I can just imagine what would happen to me had I shot a prisoner...
IN the British army it does not bear thinkong about
As to hating the Germans? I recall what they and their allies did as they murdered Tortured raped and burnt their way across Europe and the East.
That is unless everything we witnessed was a fairy tale?
Sapper

 

What about some units that were ordered to 'take no prisoners'?

 

There were no units with orders to "take no prisoners" That shows no understanding of the British Army. Over the years all sorts of stories arise, many originating from Hollywood.
What is suggested here sometimes. I find just plain daft.....

You have to understand British Army discipline..In this army you do as you are ordered. The idea that you go off shooting prisoners, or anyone else is not on, and quite honestly... far fetched.

Having seen action from Normandy to the German border. Wounded twice. My best mate was a turn of the century South African war RSM. I do think that my experience is worth listening to.

Taken part in some of the fiercest actions, I think I know what I am talking about. At no time did I ever learn about a no prisoners rule. Most of this stuff is fiction. from Hollywood???
Sapper

 

Wait peoples, the normal german soldiers maybe killed a lot of people civilians,jews but they did it because the orders come from above.If the soldier dont want to shot the jew he will stay next to him.
Im sure that most of you will shot instend of stay infront of the bullets.

People your doing the same mistake by puting the whole german amry in one, there were germans that saved jews,there were germans that killed civilians and jews because the officers ordered them,there were germans that kill a lot of people just for fun.They are not the same, not all germans were bad.Your doing the same mistake, most of the nations think that all arabians are bad and they are terrorists, but this isn't true.

 

When I read this I am quite amazed ....So you sit round say "Oh yes I shot a couple!

Didn't i say that that wasn't done? The irony was obviously lost there I think?

Or that a ground crew was involved. Ground Crew mate?? You are joking? I hope. They never came within miles of the action.

The kind of occurance doesn't have to take place on the front-lines you know. No action? Well, it must have been a well armed rabbit or something that killed 3 of my uncles mates in one night then!

I can also tell you that had a British or Canadian army killed a prisoner his feet would not have touched the ground before he would be field arrested.

Of course he would - as would have happened if he committed any other serious crime. However, if the crime had "no witnesses" and went unreported , then....

It just goes to show how very little you know about the British or Canadian armies. The way you write , it sounds like a lot of boys all boasting my dad is bigger than your dad.

I think I was in the British Army long enough to know just a little bit about them, Brian, and as for the "boys" boasting that "my dad is bigger than your dad", please bear in mind that one of these "boys" actually saw service throughout France & Flanders, North Africa, France (again), and the Far East with the Royal Artillery, the Loyals, the LFs and finally the RMP (not to mention Korea a little while later). Tell me why I should believe you and not him?

The British armies have discipline. Shooting prisoners is not on nor ever was, ...

Of course they have and no , of course it isn't. Unfortunately though, since wars began, and up to the present day, it happens and it always will. One possible reason? the Germans had a term for it - Blutrausch!

As to hating the Germans? I recall what they and their allies did as they murdered Tortured raped and burnt their way across Europe and the East.
That is unless everything we witnessed was a fairy tale?

You know I'd never go so far as to to suggest otherwise. However, to have the opinion that the British (and allied?) Army went into battle wearing halos instead of tin lids, well....

Dave