Were German Prisoners of War killed near Arras, May 1940?

Just read through this interesting thread. Whilst it has no bearing on the main issue, I note that according to Harman (see phylo_roadking #20 and Drew #90 with a snippet of an handwritten report posted by Croonaert #91 above):

An officer of 7RTR on a scouting mission captured a German non-commissioned officer, and carried him back for interrogation. "I continued into Dainville and handed over the prisoner to a captain of the DLI for conveyance to Provost personnel. The troops displayed great animosity towards the prisoner, and I was compelled to draw my revolver and order them off before I could reach their officer." If the Germans had to rely on the Durham's officers for their protection they were out of luck. By the evening of the 21st most of the DLI officers were dead, and every single one of the eight companies present was commanded by a second lieutenant."
Officer on a scouting mission gets a German non-commissioned officer for interrogation? None of this appears to be based on the actual report:

Sergeant T. Hepple, the commander of 'Guinivere', a Mark I of B Company of the 7th Royal Tank Regiment later told his story:

"The level crossing at Dainville was closed, so I was compelled to break through it, and proceeded about half a mile at high speed. Seeing two men attempting to hide in a cornfield I pursued them and opened fire with the .303 Vickers. One man surrendered and the other was apparently killed. I put the prisoner in the rear of the tank, covering him with my revolver while we went down the road. Three wrecked motor-cars were passed and one dead civilian. A mile further on we ran into a village occupied with German forces who opened fire with rifles. I turned round and came back to report to Captain M. W. Fisher. I continued into Dainville and handed over the prisoner to a captain of the Durham Light Infantry. The troops displayed great animosity towards the prisoner, and I was compelled to draw my revolver and order them off before I could reach their officer."

Blitzkrieg in the West - Then and Now page 348.

 

If I remember rightly there was an incident and I think it was in late 1940 when the Commandos did a raid into France and they shot some German prisoners, and it was this that caused Hitler to issue the order that any Commando could be shot on sight and would not be taken prisoners.

 

trust me Gooseman-I suspect no one on here is looking harder than me for Allied War Crimes !

And that is very much appreciated by me, Drew. Browsing the threads it becomes quite clear who contributes and who doesn't. It just so happened that subject thread causes much quarel. It usually does. Also in my country. It doesn't however take away the nuisance I get from people proclaiming beloney like a certain unit would never have done this or that because half their family served there, or similar BS. Save the aforesaid, I agree to leave it at that.

By the way. I am not convinced at all by the leads that the British outfit would have rounded up 400 or so POWs and shot them in cold blood. It wouldn't surprise me if it was entirely fabricated, like the Germans did in the Netherlands in a couple of cases when they crossed a few lines. Even the airraid on Rotterdam (14 May 1940) was blamed on the RAF, later on the inapt Dutch fire brigade!

Particularly the political Waffen SS had a rep to build. There where the SS-V Division and SS-Leibstandarte contained regular fighting troops, SS Polizei and SS-Totenkopf were formed divisions of non-coms. Particularly the latter, commanded by the one first of the Dachau commanders (Eicke) and notorious for his ruthlesness, was formed by many of the SS enlisted concentration camp guards, who had been trained for about four years for suppressing camps full of political convicts. Both Totenkopf and Polizei were reserve units, much to the frustration of Eicke. Like all the SS commanders, he wanted to proof his outfit a worthy field army asset, which it wasn't obviously. There where SS-V units like Der Führer and Germania regiments proved themselves in Holland, SS-Totenkopf showed little competence. The massacre in Paradis May 1940 was, to my humble opinion, nothing more than an act out frustration, rather than the sticky trigger finger acts during or right after battle.

As I said before in the thread on Paradis (I believe) the SS der Fuhrer committed a series of war crimes in the Netherlands, during the battle of the Grebbeberg. Only last year we have identified yet another execution of 8 POW's by SS men, shortly after the battle was over. A Dutch witness of the event had so much inside information on the affaire and put so much into perspective that the suspected killing ground near a particular house, where 8 people lay aside, most of them with a head wound, almost certainly was a crime scene. The witness gave however a reason too. An SS NCO had rounded up the eight men because he claimed that they had been shooting at a German red cross column. The NCO grabbed a Dutch sergeant-major in the group, had him run away and shot him in the back. The other seven were then killed by his stick. The chance that the group had truly fired on the red cross column is between slim and none. First of all, other witnesses claim that they had been all together, unarmed in the cellar of the house where the event occured later. A last minute survivor (until last year the only half-witness of the affaire - he escaped when they were captured) insisted that they were not only unarmed but also that mostly the rest of the gear had been left behind. The witness that was found last year confirmed that the men seemed to be without gear, weapons and ammo. The days before the SS hurds had killed something between 30-60 Dutch soldiers, perhaps more. The thing is, that only a few scenes prove methodical killing by the way bodies were found or the nature of the wounds. In a number of cases it were more like the indirect consequences, like forcing POWs to form a shield, driving them up to the frontline pulling heavy weapons or putting POW's deliberately in the line of fire. Estimates go up to around a 100 mortal casualties, about a quarter of the Dutch KIA losses during the battle of the Grebbeberg.

The accusations after the Dutch capitulation were mild, by the Dutch. People feared for their health when complaining. Still some reports were filed. Even during the battle POWs heard excuses. The SS said that the Dutch had abused the white flag, misleading the SS men into suspected taken positions and then opening up. Also many witnesses state that the SS men were constantly drunk. They must have smelt after liquor all the time. Probably one or two Schnapps rations too much.

SS AA (recce) men also crossed the line during the first day of the invasion. That put POW's, officers and NCO, on the front shields of their armoured cars and tried to force Dutch positions into surrender as such. Acts that were not at all provoked by fierce battle, but came as a first reflex, apparently. Basically the SS lived by the code, but not like a mandatory code of conduct, but more like 'endevouring to apply'.

In defence of the SS of the Grebbeberg could be stated that any soldier fighting as a storm trooper (which the SS did at the battle of the Grebbeberg) is doped. The adrenaline must OD any soldier with a heart. The unknown terrain, the first acquintance with death (SS Der Führer was baptised during the Dutch invasion) and the never relieving pressure of achievement did the rest. I have often wondered how I myself would be in such a situation. I never saw true action in my service time. It is one thing I miss in my portfolio. Although numerous conversations with vets make one wiser, it is never the same as tasting the utter fear and stress in your own mouth. But save that shortage, I can go along with people who would state that a stormtrooper doesn't take prisoners. That is however completely different from executing people in cold blood, not being doped by your own stress and fear. That happened too by the SS, like in the south of Belgian end of May 1940.

That same thing that the Germans had, after all also a few regular army units committed a crime or two, could be found on our own sides. I known of a few executions or killings of German POWs by the Dutch or trics that were as good as that. I am sure that the Frenchies had quite some on their account, for I know of French crimes too. The Belgians, particularly the Ardense Jagers outfits, wouldn't be too much bothered and I cannot believe that some of the BEF units wouldn't have crossed a line here and there.

The 400 number however, seems to be one of those mysterious numbers that seem to go along with gossip and half-truths. But couldn't it have been one or two dozens for example? It takes one German witness to take that to the own lines to cause a riot over it.

 

Post 86:

Just skimmed through the thread again ...
Does anyone know where a copy of this enquiry / report might be obtained, if indeed it is available to the public / has been published? I for one think it would be helpful if it could be posted or, at the very least, the gist of the points / evidence shared.

Hi Diane,

Not sure if its ever been made public but I know where to find the relevant papers/documents including the following;-

Copy letter from William Ridley, editor of the Gateshead and Newcastle Branch of the D.L.I. Association, to Colonel H.S. Sell concerning the newspaper article, 'The Massacre that Never Was', from the Sunderland Echo, 24 November 1993, and refuting the allegations of mass murder levelled against the 6th and 8th Battalions, The Durham Light Infantry, in the withdrawal from Dunkirk, France, in 1940, 24 November 1993 .(2 Pages)

Copy affidavit of Colonel H.S. Sell concerning the Arras counter-attack carried out by the Durham Light Infantry Brigade (151) and the alleged murder of four hundred German prisoners on 21 May 1940, and associated correspondence with Major Ian English, 11 September 1989; 29 December 1988 - 23 January 1989 (11 Pages)


Notes on the operations of 151st Infantry Brigade in France and Belgium from 16 May to 2 June 1940, leading to the evacuation from Dunkirk, by Brigadier J.A.C. Churchill, D.S.O., M.C., (C.1940) (10 Pages)

Letter from the Regimental Secretary to the Chairman of the Regimental Fund and Museum Committee concerning the unfavourable reference to The Durham Light Infantry in Nicholas Harman's book, Dunkirk, The Necessary Myth, and enclosing copies of an article by Laurence Turner and a report of Ian English's consultation with Judge Jalland, 4 November 1981 (17 Pages)


Theres a few problems getting hold of copies however as they are held in the Durham Records Office run by the County Council and although they permit the use of a Digital Camera (For a £10 Fee of course!) they also have the final say in what can be copied and last time I enquired regarding documents I received a very polite..No but we do have a copying service at 50p a side...with over 40 pages it adds up ,not that I would begrudge the amount ...if it would settle this issue...but it won`t,sadly, I do not need a crystal ball to see the obvious arguement...that its from a DLI perspective.

Next time I`m in Durham I will enquire again but after reading some of the posts on this thread I`m starting to come to the shared opinion of some Members that the only way this thread will ever conclude is with the finding of 400 SS bodies in a mass grave near Duisan...which will never happen .

Best Wishes
Jim

 

Hello Jim,

That'll be the Major Ian English that won:

BEF - MiD - 2nd Lieutenant
ME - MC - Captain
ME - Bar to MC - Captain
NWE - 2nd Bar to MC - Major

That'll be the Colonel H.S. Sell that won:

ME - MC - Major
ME - MiD - Major

Best,

Steve.

 

I would be more than happy to chip in towards any costs for copying. Please let me know details via PM.

Me too!

 

Thanks for the offer but like I said the price isnt the problem (and I agree its best not to anticipate the nature of comments however there is a precedent throughout this thread) Next time I`m through possibly March depending on time constraints I`ll try and get the Documents I will also make some enquiries regarding past publications etc.
Thanks for the offers but I respectfully decline


Best Wishes

Jim

 

I've attached four relevant pages from The War In France and Flanders 1939-1940 by L. F. Ellis (the official History of the Second World War - United Kingdom Military Series, edited by J. R. M. Butler).

Interesting that the sentence "The troops displayed great animosity towards the prisoner, and I was compelled to draw my revolver and order them off before I could reach their officer." was omitted and replaced by three dots (...) indicating that some words were missing (underlined in red in the scan).

Given such touchiness as late as 1953, it is hardly likely that Ellis would have mentioned the capture of 'nearly 400 prisoners' if they had all gone missing- see scan Arras-04.

I think this has been mentioned before in this thread, but the whole thing fails on logistics. Slaughtering 400 men would take some organising, if you opened up on them with a machine gun the mass would immediately hit the deck and there would be chaos with living shielded by front ranks of wounded and corpses. With large numbers to dispatch both the Nazis and the Soviets shot over prepared pits in batches of ten or so with firing squads. Another quick way to dispatch victims was a single pistol shot in the nape of the neck, usually with two holding the victim, but either way it would take hours to get through 400. Didn't a single officer, NCO, or private step forward and say this is madness? And what then? Wouldn't a potentially dangerous witness have to be dispatched too?

 

I copied all the Armoured Bde files today and Inoticed there are a few reports in them regarding the battle at Arras-I'll see if there is a mention of any PoW's..

I also copied the war crimes files at St Venant (Excellent detailed maps and a great picture) to see if there is a link as I believe the murdered soldiers are DLI. First glimpse as I was copying them the units was SS Germania so I doubt there is a link but the files do contain suspect statments.

For the record I've never believed there was 400 soldiers murdered but I remain opened minded to what actually happened.

 

I think Peter's Messages #141 and 150 are very well considered; I would only like to comment on the last sentence of the first quote in Message #141 where Harman claims:

"By the evening of the 21st most of the DLI officers were dead, and every single one of the eight companies present was commanded by a second lieutenant."

This refers to the 8th Bn Durham Light Infantry which lost between 23 (definite) and 25 (possibly) men KIA on 21 and 22 May 1940 - the pertinent dates. Not one of these soldiers was an Officer. The Battalion history discusses one Company Commander wounded, with he an another Company Commander taken POW on the 21 May 1940. Where did Harman get his facts - or is it fantasy?

Best,

Steve.

 

Maybe I should have read Harman's book some time ago-I've just pulled it off my shelf. He doesn't claim 400 prisoners but does mention Return via Dunkirk by Gun Buster (Dunkirk vet) who claims there was 400 prisoners according to Harman.

 

Thanks to all who helped getting this thread back on track.

Regarding German documents: There have been mentions from some who posted in here that there was no mention of any massacre in German files. I have only a few pages dealing only with accusations addressed to Eicke (ref. killings of British Ps/W by the T-Div); I never really researched the matter.

Does any of you have German sources concerning the area and date in question?
I'm sure that would shed some light on the issue of killings of prisoners (and retribution). Not that there'll be mention of such a massacre for had there happened anything like that it would have left very visible traces in German documents, propaganda and historiography.

 

Hello Kate,

To my knowledge Rommel, Eicke and Sydnor have all commented on the Arras counter-attack/action.

From the Axis forum:

"Charles Sydnor's Soldiers of Destruction, a history of the Totenkopf, 1990, gives the following details of German casualties at Arras:

SSTK Div
39 Killed
66 Wounded
2 Missing

7th Pz Div
89 Killed
116 Wounded
83 Missing

395 Total

This locks up with other works that quote total German losses at Arras as around 400 men. Sydnor's figures are supported by SSTK and 7th PZ Div after action reports and casualty returns. Finalised 'missing' were determined after roll calls and battlefield investigations."

Best,

Steve.

 

Thanks to all who helped getting this thread back on track.

Regarding German documents: There have been mentions from some who posted in here that there was no mention of any massacre in German files. I have only a few pages dealing only with accusations addressed to Eicke (ref. killings of British Ps/W by the T-Div); I never really researched the matter.

Does any of you have German sources concerning the area and date in question?
I'm sure that would shed some light on the issue of killings of prisoners (and retribution). Not that there'll be mention of such a massacre for had there happened anything like that it would have left very visible traces in German documents, propaganda and historiography.


Kate-Have you read the Eicke's reply to asking what happened at Le Cornet (Paradis)? Does it quote German casualties as 4 German Officers and 153 OR's killed, 18 Officers and 483 OR's wounded, 53 Missing?

I ask because Harman states this in his book and says (I agree) that this figure is too high for the fighting at Le Coronet and suggests Eicke is referring to losses sustained previously by 'sneaking, rascally methods'

He quotes Eicke:

Die hinterhaltige, schurkische Kampfesweise der Englander musste mit der standrechtliche Erschiessung der Reste der am feigen Uberfall beteiligten im Interesse der eigenen Truppe gesuhunt werdun.

 

I have briefly checked Return via Dunkirk by Gun Buster and can't find anything. I didn't look to hard as the book is part fiction and doesn't mention dates to help narrow down the time line.

 

Weren't they ever reproduced in a journal or newsletter?



Thank you for the suggestion Diane after a few hours trawling I`ve found the following prepared as a defence against the allegations and republished as late as 2010 by John Sadler in his work `Dunkirk to Belsen`Forward by General Sir Mike Jackson ISBN -978-1-906779-87-0
LIEUTENANT COLONEL HARRY SELL DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY TRANSPORT OFFICER 151 BRIGADE MAY 1940
"As the Brigade Transport Oficer and as part of The Brigade Battle Drill I was,in this period,checking the roads in the forward areas to confirm the suitability for supply points,air cover,turning circuits etc and to note alternative routes for use in the event of air or enemy interference.After reporting the position to Brigade Battle HQ.I returned to main HQ at Vimy via 9 DLI Givenchy Road at 22/2300hrs.
Some little time later I was asked by the staff Captain if transport was available for evacuation of prisoners? I advised..No.
At this time a section of Military Police were in the area and the D.A.P.M(Provost Marshall) was either present or had recently visited.He would have a call on thr TCL`s at Hullock via Division.
The prisoners being reported on the main road,I went at once and found them halted in close formation guarded by a few soldiers.The CMP`s were all present and in charge.I understand that the prisoners were an amalgamation of those taken by both the 6th and 8th Durham Light Infantry.It was my job to see them off to 50th Division HQ and I was advised that Captain Buckmeister the Divisional Intelligence officer would be interrogating a selection of them.As I walked down the column I did not hear any protest or see any signs of distress. I explained the transport position to an NCO in charge and he reported the prisoners all fit to march.
A detachment of Military Police then took charge of the prisoners and I watched them march off well clear of the brigade area.That was the end of the matter of the prisoners as far as brigade was concerned.
I would like to stress the following;
I did see and have contact with the prisoners.
The few soldiers who were present had slung rifles and no automatic weapons
The proceedings were orderly and silent.No comments,gestures or demonstrations were made by the prisoners or to them during their halt at Vimy.
I had travelled the roads from Vimy to the forward areas at the relevant times and had seen nothing untoward and had seen the prisoners out of the area under the proper authority.I had traversed the ridge after the battalions had left and picked up the stragglers.
The timetable,time and distance elements,the fact that troops were at all times engaged in the enemy operation and in disengaging from them.Any allegations concerning mis conduct by the Durham Light Infantry at this time are a Myth.
Harry Sell Colonel (rtd)

The second is from an Intelligence officer with 50th Div at the same time
Colonel M J Buckmeister then a Captain acting Intelligence officer 50th Division May 1940.
"I examined three men of the 8 Schutzen Regiment(lorry carried infantry) captured near Maroeil and one man of 6 Schutzen Regiment captured near Arras.These examinations took place at about 0400hrs on the 22nd May 1940.They were all communicative and answered questions without reluctance.Morale seemed fairley good.There was no vindictiveness shown against England or France or resentment at being captured.The men were mostly very young they came from all parts of Germany but principally the Cologne area.Our prisoners were given normal civilised treatment.Talk of a massacre by the Durhams is nonsence
M J Buckmeister

John Sadler who reproduced these findings in his publication is credited with over 20 books .He lectures at Sunderland University,The Imperial War Museum and The National Army Museum.

Best Wishes
Jim

 

@ Steve: Thanks for the info.

Andy, the quote is from the file dealing with the incident of 90 British prisoners shot by the T-Div.

It starts with the report from XVI AK to the AOK 6 about the shooting of "90 english prisoners by the SS-Totenkopf-Division".
The bodies were found on 28th May by an officer of the Gen.Kdo. and immediately the T-Div. was asked for clarification of the incident. The following day a medical officer checked the bodies and the report from T-Div. arrived. However, it wasn't complete and so on the same day T-Div. was asked to answer the rest of the questions. They never did that (despite repeated requests) and on 1st June they were out of reach of the Gen.Kdo anyway. So the report was never completed, according to the file.

What Eicke sent in is the following:
I.1. The English used Dum-Dum ammo.
2. They held up a Nazi flag, so the German soldiers got out of cover and were ambushed. "The result of Malo":
4 Offz., 153 Uffz. and men dead
18 Offz., 483 Uffz. wounded [note that there's only mention of NCOs wounded, not Mannschaften]
53 Uffz. and Mannschaften missing
Due to the devious and rogue [schurkisch] fighting methods, the rest of the English troops [i.e. those 90 prisoners] had to be court-martialled and shot as to take revenge on behalf of the soldiers of the T-Div.
Other reports on this incident are false and malevolent.

II. There was no looting [by T-Div] in Bethune. The soldiers were hungry and they had to take the food they needed themselves because supplies didn't arrive as the attacking forces advanced too fast. Besides, units of the Heer did just the same.

III. On 28th May, heavy Heer artillery shelled our troops [...]. CO III./1. lightly, CO 10./1. heavily wounded (lost an arm). The claim it was the heavy art. Abt. of the [T-]Div is wrong. This Abt. wasn't shooting at all.

gez: Eicke
*free translation; quotes are marked with ""

 

I think the above accounts posted by Verrieres appear to be linked to the prisoners taken by 6 DLI and the ones mentioned below that were captured by 8 DLI don't seem to make it back to 151 Bde according to the account by Major Pitt 8 DLI's Intel Officer and Corporal Self of 8 DLI.

B Company clearing woods around Duisans, netted some captives and the battalion took charge of more corralled by French Tanks. Major Pitt, Itelligence Officer, 8 DLI, recalled these events:

We came to the cemetery at Duisans just after some French tanks had attacked German motorised infantry along the adjacent road (Arras-St.Pol). There were many German vehicles on fire. One German Sergeant in a pitiful condition with both legs severed looked up at me and said 'shoot me', but I could not do it. Some Germans who had escaped the hail of French fire had run into the cemetery and were hiding amongst the gravestones. Our French Liasion Officer came up to me and said, 'Look, our tanks have got some Germans bottled up in the cemetery but our men don't want to have to get out of their tanks to flush them out. Will your men come and get them out?' I went to the cemetery with a Frenchman. The First World War gravestones were freshly chipped with machine-gun bullets from the French tanks. There must have been 18 to 20 very frightened young Germans lying there. Brandishing my .38 revolver I shouted, 'Heraus! Heraus!' The Germans scrambled up with their hands above their heads . 'You English?' one man asked me. After the hammering they had taken from the French, they seemed relieved to see an English soldier; we marched them out. A French Sergeant appeared and we handed the prisoners over to him. He started to push them around a bit and made them strip to their underpants and lie down on the road. I thought all this was a bit unnecessary though, of course we were in the middle of a fluid battle situation and this was an effective way of making POW's immobile.

At this point both B and C Companies, under the Second-in-Command, Major McLaren, remained in the village whilst Colonel Beart led the rest on toward Walrus. Still acting in concert with the French Chars, C Company stormed the village cemetery where the remnant of the German garrison appeared to be dug in as described above. Already depleted by the whirlwind advance of the British armour, the survivors quickly surrendered; only 20 per cent of the company sized unit had survived. By the time mopping up was complete, the remainder of the battalion under the CO had occupied Walrus. It was now 17.15 hours. Corporal Self of 8 DLI also took part in this brisk action:

The prisoners taken on the 21 May 1940 were handed over to the French Army, who were in reserve to the 8th Battalion DLI. From my position, which was about 300 yards down the road from the French, I saw them embussed into transport, and taken to the rear. What happened to the prisoners after that I have no idea, but certainly the Durhams had no contact with them...One of my company platoons attacked the vicinity of a cemetery from which there was firingon our position behind three French tanks. It was estimated that about a hundred Germans were killed and 20 prisoners taken. These prisoners were also handed over to the French...I was quite surprised to find the German prisoners were much the same as ourselves; I saw no ill treatment towards them
.

From Dunkirk to Belsen - John Sadler