Some History

Discussion in 'The Holocaust' started by Wayne, Jan 26, 2007.

  1. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Guys is an extremely informative thread and I am standing in the shadows of giants here!
     
  2. Wayne

    Wayne Junior Member

    Instead of relying on my faulty memory and limited books I've spent a few days looking for archaeological proof of events.

    This is what i have so far and is interesting in regards to military, biblical and cultural situations during the period from homer to King Solomon. The interactions are complicated compared to how countries today conduct wars as none seemed really decisive compared to ours.

    This site is a map of the area during the Biblical judges and another during the time of David that show Canaan and Philistia. It will help in locating places I mention.
    Early Maps of Israel

    Enjoy. I will cover later periods if anyone is interested as it is fascinating to find so much corellation of archaeology with the bible, and of course military events :)


    The Egyptians never called them People of the Sea. They used two terms to identify them, "Foreigners from the Sea" and "from the Northern Countries".

    Although there is some evidence of attacks that could be the Sea Peoples from earlier dates the first detailed record of these people was a stele found in Karnak that lists all the groups who made up the "People of the Sea" that invaded in the 13th century BC.

    These are the groups archaeologists believe these groups to be based on archaeological evidence.

    1. Ekwesh (Homeric Achaeans)
    2. Tursha (Trojans)
    3. Rw Kw (Lyceans)
    4. Sherden (People from Sardis in Anatolia who eventually settled in Sardinia)
    5. Sheklesh (origin unknown but thought to be who later settled Sicily)

    This stele contains the only Egyptian mention of Israel for the period "Israel is laid waste and it's seed is not" The stele mentions several of the cities where Rameses would later settle the Sea Peoples. There is no mention of the Philistines.

    The second invasion of the Sea Peoples around 1175 BC was recorded in Medinet Habu and also lists the different groups involved. The Philistines and Tjekker invaded by land while the Sheklesh, Denyen and Weshesh invaded by sea. These inscriptions also have paintings of how the invaders were dressed and the weapons they carried. From this it almost certain the invaders were both Mycenaean and Anatolian Greeks

    Most Near Eastern scholars believe the Philistines came from the area around Athens and Mycenae (objects found in Ashdod indicate that the early Philistines worshiped the same gods that were worshiped there until they adopted the Canaanite Gods) There is evidence of the Sea Peoples moving from the Peloponnese islands in 1210 BC and building bases on Cyprus and objects found here show people dressed like Philistines but they are all bearded while the Philistines were as a rule clean shaven.

    Rameses III defeated the Sea Peoples and captured "hundreds of thousands". Rameses said he settled them in cities in Canaan and provided them with food and clothing for years until they could support themselves. . It is clear from the texts that the Philistines were already living in Philistia when the People of the Sea invaded and archaeological evidence (their pottery) points to them settling there in the beginning of the 13th century BC.

    *Interestingly Rameses also recorded some earlier history. He recorded the Hittite attack and defeat of the Assuwa League sometime around 1250 BC. The Assuwa League was formed to attack the Hittites who were in decline at this time but the Hittites attacked them first. Rameses lists the members of the Assuwa League as Troy, Lycia (Luqqa), Lycia (Warsiya) Caria and Ilios, using the names the archaeologists believe them to be. Only a few years later Homer has Mycenae attacking Troy and her allies Lycia and Caria. Homer mentions that there were two separate Lycian kingdoms, "distant Lycia" in south/west Anatolia and Lycia "near Troy". Homers Troy (Troy VI) was destroyed around 1250 BC just prior to the first Sea People invasions. Troy VIIA was destroyed around 1180 BC which is not long before the second Sea People invasion.

    It was around the time of Troy’s destruction that many of the Achaean city-states fell possibly due to their armies being in Anatolia too long or through internal takeovers due to their leaders being away. As a result many of the Achaean armies didn’t return home. The dates seem to indicate that after the fall of Homers Troy the survivors of Troy and allies along with the Achaean Greeks who never returned home, possibly collectively called the Sea Peoples, attacked Egypt and Canaan. They also attacked many Aegean countries. The rebuilt Troy was destroyed in 1180 and the Sea People attacked Egypt and Canaan again but this time with some new allies.

    Excavations have shown that the Egyptians settled Canaan in the 14th century BC (mainly fortresses) and these ruins are overlaid with 13th century Philistine buildings along with Egyptian military and supporting buildings indicating a strong Egyptian military presence.

    The Onomastocon of Amenope written in the 12th century BC confirms what Rameses said. It records the names of the cities the Philistines settled as Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gaza. Exodus names many such as Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Gath, Timnah, Ziklag and Gaza. It is thought that the ones Exodus mentions that Rameses doesn't are the cities in Canaan the Philistines settled after they expanded from the sites Rameses resettled them.

    The cities of Ashdod and Gaza seem to be the oldest Philistine cities with evidence that they were inhabited by Philistines during the reign of Rameses II and were loyal to Egypt at that time. Neither were mentioned in the list of cities Merneptah attacked. The Sea Peoples later sacked both during Merneptah’s reign. It is possible that the Philistines were living in the area controlled by the Canaanites during this period although this belief is not widely held. The Canaanites as a separate specific culture ended around the middle of the 13th century, possibly destroyed by the Sea Peoples although their people retained power in several city-states. Genetic studies show that the Phoenicians were the Canaanites and their descendants are the Maronite Christians and Shiite Muslims of modern Lebanon. The so-called “Canaanite gene” has been found in populations around the Mediterranean where the Phoenicians are known to have colonized.

    Pharaoh Merneptah recorded his battles with the Sea People and although Merneptah defeated them, the Sea Peoples retained control of Ashkelon at least until the reign of Rameses III. Excavations also show that after Rameses III resettled the Philistines in Ashdod, that city remained firmly in Philistine possession until the middle of the 11th century.

    Timnah was Canaanite until sacked in around 1150 BC. Pottery shows the inhabitants had a Mycenaean Greek culture probably from the first Sea People invasion. Between 1150 – 1100 BC the Philistines rebuilt the city and lived there until it was abandoned around 1000 BC.
    Timnah is where the Bible locates the story of Sampson. It is mentioned in judges that the Philistines ruled over Judah. The names Delilah and Sampson could be a pun, Delilah being derived from the Hebrew word for night (laylah) and Sampson from the Hebrew word for Sun (Semes). The pun being the night would defeat the Sun.
    The Temple in Gaza that Sampson brought down has not been excavated but the Biblical description is similar to a temple excavated in Quasile. This temple style is unlike any other Philistine temples but is very similar to Mycenaean temples. Quasile was settled in 1150 BC.

    War between the Philistines and Israelites began sometime around 1050 BC. The Israelites were defeated and the Biblical account is largely confirmed by archaeological evidence. The Bible says that the Philistines worshiped a God called Dagon. Dagon also was a personal name and the name of a month. The Philistines of Ashdod worshiped Baal Zebub but also had a temple to Dagon that was in use until destroyed in 150 BC. In the 12th century in the area around Cyprus Dagon was known as the father of Baal. Further evidence of a Cyprus connection for the Philistines.
    The Philistines had captured the Ark of the Covenant and displayed it in Ashdod. Not long after, what looks like Bubonic Plague according to descriptions broke out. The Ark was sent to Ashkelon, Gaza then Gath and the Plague broke out in each city in turn. The Philistines saw this as punishment by Israel’s God rather than the carriers of the Ark spreading the Plague. When the Ark was sent to Akron the inhabitants tried to prevent its entry. The terminology used in the bible seems to indicate that each Philistine city was an independent city-state similar to the Aegean model rather than the type of city-state found in the Middle East. The Philistines then offered to return the Ark to the Israelites.

    The Ark was handed over in the Israelite town of Beth Shemesh on the Philistia border and the Plague broke out there as well. This was explained as punishment for looking at the Ark. The Ark was then sent to Kiriath Jearim where it remained for 20 years during which time the Philistines took control of it again although it is unknown if they knew the Ark was in the town.

    Samuel now says that the Israelites routed the Philistines and reclaimed the land from Ekron to Gath. These cities show no sign of having fallen at this time so Samuel may mean only claiming the surrounding land of these cities. The Israelites now controlled much of Canaan but the Philistines still controlled the coastal plains and Philistia.
    Significantly Samuel mentions that after the Philistines routed, their Hebrew allies left them and joined the Israelites indicating the Hebrews were considerably divided.
    The 17th chapter of Samuel gives a clue to the origin of the philistines. The challenge of Goliath to fight in single combat is a typical Aegean Greek action and completely foreign to local practices. The name Goliath itself is not Semitic but is Anatolian and the biblical description of his armour is Achaean Greek.

    An interesting battle in WW1 is linked to the battle at Michmash where the Israelites first routed the Philistines. In WW1 the English confronted the Turks at Michmash and used the bible to first locate the exact battle site and then General Allenby duplicated the Israelite tactics to defeat the Turks there.

    Now we come to David’s encounter with King Achish of Gath. The name Achish seems to be a Trojan name (the father of Aeneas was Anchises). David allied with King Achish against Saul and king Achish gave the city of Ziklag to David. The Philistines (without David) defeated Saul at Aphek and displayed his body in Beth Shean. The Philistines now controlled Israel.

    The Bible earlier mentions that Ziklag belonged to Judah so apparently the Philistines had captured it. It is though the present day Tel Halif was Ziklag (or possibly Tel Sera) and Tel el Safi was Gath. It was here that David lived before he became king of Judah. Ziklag is a Tjekka name, one of the Sea Peoples of the second invasion.

    The Amalekites burned Ziklag down according to the Bible but excavations at Tel Halif do not show this although they do show evidence of an attack and some destruction at the end of the 11th century BC, which was when David moved to Hebron. Ziklag only had minimal reconstruction after the Amalekite attack and it was another 100 years before intensive reconstruction commenced which ties in with its ruler leaving.

    After David became king of Judah civil war broke out between David and Saul’s followers. The Philistines took no active part although they gave David support and he remained their ally until he won the war and was crowned king of Israel thus uniting both Judah and Israel which the Philistines saw as a threat.
    The Philistines gathered their forces at Ekron? And marched to Rephaim but were defeated by David. From this time Philistine records show no more battles. Ekron is strategically the best place to gather before an attack at Rephaim. A second battle was fought at Rephaim not long after and the Philistines were not only beaten again but retreated to Gezer which is visible from Ekron.

    To give an idea of how significant the defeat of the Philistines was. The city of Ekron covered 50 acres and was only 1/3 of the size of the Philistine capital. Compare this to the largest city of Israel, Jerusalem that covered only 13 acres.
    Despite David’s defeat of the Philistines, unlike the other Philistine cities in Canaan which became predominantly Hebrew, Ziklag and Ekron’s populations remained predominantly Philistine. Later, King David’s army would have a large number of Philistines serving in it. Another interesting point is that when David was transporting the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem, Uzzah was struck dead for touching it. David left the Ark in the house of Obed Edom and “the Lord blessed Obed Edom and all his house”. This says something of the complicated relationships of the times, as Obed Edom was a Philistine.

    There were several revolts against King David’s rule by the Cherethites and Pelethites. These along with the Gittites were all Philistines by culture and their different names may have been indicative of their origins before they first settled in Canaan.

    Just before King David’s death his son Adonijah was being supported as the next King but David’s Philistine bodyguard took Solomon to be anointed. Ironically it was Israel’s enemy the Philistines who not only save David’s life but also helped him become king and who also are responsible for Solomon becoming king after him.

    Philistines ruled Gezer but the population were Canaanites as there is very little evidence that Philistines lived there. David did not capture Gezer and it remained Canaanite under Philistine control until it was defeated by the Egyptians and given to Solomon as a dowry for the Pharaohs daughter.
    Although David defeated the other Philistine cities in Canaan he left Gezer alone for unknown reasons. Maybe he wanted the city to be a buffer between Israel and Philistia or it may have been because Philistia was still allied to Egypt.

    Interestingly Gezer was probably still allied to Egypt when the Pharaoh attacked but it seems to have been an Egyptian practice to take a city after an allies (or vassals) king had died to get a “feel” of how strong the ally was.

    In the late 11th century Ashdod expanded and became heavily fortified. Either King David or Pharaoh Siamun in the first half of the 10th century destroyed it. The Philistines then went into a period of decline. For example Ekron shrank from 50 acres to 10 acres. Ashdod however was rebuilt and expanded, Philistine power increased here and it remained a strong Philistine city until the early 8th century when it was destroyed by King Uzziah of Judah. The city was again rebuilt but was then occupied by the Assyrians in the late 8th century, a period when the Bible mentions the Assyrians invading. King Solomon ruled the lands of Philistia and accepted tribute from the Philistines but did not control it’s capital Ashdod.

    After Solomon died around 922 BC his kingdom split into two and Egypt invaded Judah. Many Israelite cities were destroyed and not rebuilt for a very long time and Jerusalem was sacked. We know the exact date of this because it was recorded on a stele as 918 BC. Reheboam eventually lost control of Philistia and the Philistines (and Edomites) began making raids into Israeli territory. King Uzziah declared war on the Philistines who tried to ally with the Assyrians but later many Philistine towns came under Assyrian control while the Israelites continued to make successful raids there periodically.

    The Assyrians had a strong empire in 1100 BC but then declined for 200 years. Assyrian records speak of invading Israel and Syria in the 9th century and mention many battles not found in the Bible. According to Shalmaneser III, the Israelites were overwhelmingly defeated. Another record dated 841 BC states that Assyria had invaded Syria 16 times and each time collected tribute from the Israelites. An obelisk found in the Assyrian capital Nimrud shows Israel’s king Jehu bowing before Shalmaneser and offering tribute.

    Although Assyria’s invasions of Tyre, Sidon, Israel, Judah and Philistia weakened Judah and led to the defeat of Israel, Philistia and the Philistines now began a period of growth and increase in power.
     
  3. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Instead of relying on my faulty memory and limited books I've spent a few days looking for archaeological proof of events.

    This is what i have so far and is interesting in regards to military, biblical and cultural situations during the period from homer to King Solomon.
    This site is a map of the area during the Biblical judges and another during the time of David that show Canaan and Philistia. It will help in locating places I mention.

    ... fascinating to find so much corellation of archaeology with the bible,

    The Egyptians never called them People of the Sea. They used two terms to identify them, "Foreigners from the Sea" and "from the Northern Countries".
    Wayne

    This not only strays off 'antiSemetism', it is outdated. It is now thought highly unlikely that there ever was a King Solomon or a King David, although you will find hundreds of sites, both lay and religious, that will confidently tell you that they were real people.

    From the 1860's until relatively recently many archaeolgists accepted the Bible implicitly and worked with the Bible as a blue-print in 'discovering' archaeological proof of the related facts. They started from an assumed position B and worked back to A. Indeed, there are still groups hunting for the site of Noah's Ark.

    The best example of this approach is Light From The Ancient Past - The Archeological Background of Judaism and Christianity by Jack Finegan (Princeton University Press, second edition, 1959). Still worth looking at for the wealth of photographs, but for little else in the light of a more profound analysis of the archaeological evidence.

    If you seriously want to study the subject get The Bible Unearthed - Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman (ISBN 0-684-86912-8), the authors are two leading scholars, one an archaeologist the other a historian. They have led archaeological teams of the highest calibre.

    As for the people of the sea or Sea People, the best account on line is given here Egypt: Who Were the Sea People

    Peter
     
  4. Wayne

    Wayne Junior Member

    Whether David and Solomon existed is irrelevant as many Biblical events, though not all, can be supported by archaeology. Maybe the kings had different names which is highly likely but those are the ones familiar to us from known records so i used them.

    The post may have strayed somewhat off anti Semitism but it continued an existing discussion and was, I thought, interesting. Also it is a good illustration that Jews were no different to any other culture of the times. We are all the same despite differing origins. In other words their ancient history can not be used as an excuse for any of the anti Semitism today.

    As for outdated, the oldest of the sources I used was from 1992 and all were archaeologists who excavated in the area. Some were in agreance and some not.

    Are the conclusions in my post wrong? Very likely but that is what research is all about. You use the facts you have to make the most likely scenario you can and alter it as new facts become available.
     
  5. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Whether David and Solomon existed is irrelevant as many Biblical events, though not all, can be supported by archaeology. Maybe the kings had different names which is highly likely but those are the ones familiar to us from known records so i used them.

    The post may have strayed somewhat off anti Semitism but it continued an existing discussion and was, I thought, interesting. Also it is a good illustration that Jews were no different to any other culture of the times. We are all the same despite differing origins. In other words their ancient history can not be used as an excuse for any of the anti Semitism today.

    As for outdated, the oldest of the sources I used was from 1992 and all were archaeologists who excavated in the area. Some were in agreance and some not.

    Are the conclusions in my post wrong? Very likely but that is what research is all about. You use the facts you have to make the most likely scenario you can and alter it as new facts become available.
    Wayne

    With regard to your last two lines above, I hold aa MA in European studies and research, my postgraduate degree followed a BA honours degree, and I have held seminars for undergraduates. I am reasonably well versed in research methods.

    As much as I admire your love of ancient history, much of what you are saying is outdated and misleading. You are giving a description of events which require years of detailed study and interpretation. Some of what you say is broadly right but with respect, as I said, much is misleading. The book I recommended to you (Finkelstein and Silberman) gives the very latest findings as at 2001. There are also good accounts in the Wikipedia on ancient history and archaeology, why not leave it at that?

    You are also mingling Greek myth and legend with biblical texts and treating them as established fact, for exampleIt was around the time of Troy’s destruction that many of the Achaean city-states fell possibly due to their armies being in Anatolia too long or through internal takeovers due to their leaders being away. As a result many of the Achaean armies didn’t return home. The dates seem to indicate that after the fall of Homers Troy the survivors of Troy and allies along with the Achaean Greeks who never returned home, possibly collectively called the Sea Peoples, attacked Egypt and Canaan.
    What siege of Troy, and what Archean armies? I have read Homer in three translations and I have two copies in Greek, it is some of the greatest poetry ever written, but that is what it is: poetry, and we mustn't suppose that there was a Greek army surrounding Troy in a ten year siege, or that the great Homeric heroes were real people. The ancients thought they were real and this sometimes impinged on their behaviour, for example, after the fall of Gaza an enraged Alexander, who believed he was descended from Achilles, is said to have dragged the body of Batis, the Persian governor of Gaza, tied to his chariot around the city walls in emulation of Achilles with the body of Hector at the fall of Troy.

    The Onomastocon of Amenope written in the 12th century BC confirms what Rameses said.
    The Onomastocon you refer to is known only from ten fragments. It gives groupings of words: towns, ox parts, etc, - onomastocon simply means synonyms, groupings of words, as in a dictionary. It's prime importance is to linguists. Its interest to historians lies in the list of the Sea People in Text 244, but it has nothing to say about Ramses III and his victory stela, and useful as it is, you cannot take a later repetition of an earlier inscription as proof of its veracity.

    And you simply cannot conjecture like thisThe names Delilah and Sampson could be a pun, Delilah being derived from the Hebrew word for night (laylah) and Sampson from the Hebrew word for Sun (Semes).
    As I understand it, Delilah is a Hebrew girl's name derived from 'delicate' - Behind the Name: View Name: Delilah Much as we give girls names of flowers: Rose, Lilly, etc, you just cannot draw any firm conclusions from names. We don't know how that particular myth arose.

    Where I fully agre with you is here:that Jews were no different to any other culture of the times. We are all the same despite differing origins. In other words their ancient history can not be used as an excuse for any of the anti Semitism today.
    Best regards,
    Peter
     

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