Am currently reading the book Das Reich, the march of the 2nd SS Pz Div through France, June 1944. In this book it gives a detailed veiw of the French Resistance and portrays it as being fairly disorganised, many personal agendas etc. One point that struck me as interesting was the reluctance of the 'stable' classes of people to involve themselves with resistance. It offered the explination that they had the most to loose and to a degree welcomed the stability that the Germans brought with them. It then discussed that the bulk of the early resistance came from the undesireable elements of society. The less educated, economicaly stable etc. In fact, generally the kind of people that you would cross the street to avoid. It also discussed the social feeligns of the day, particualrly the fear of communisim and the strong anti semitisim. The impression that this book gave me was that the early resistance were really bandits that now had a pretext to wage personal wars against anyone and everyone in the name of patriotisim. It was only leading up to June 44 that the resistance gained any credible momentum. Any thoughts?
I can't answer as to the nature of the French Underground being personal wars and vendettas, but it was not extremely coherent until mid-1944. Most of the French maquisards were apparently initially Vichy French troops who took to the hills in 1942 when Hitler took over the "Free Zone" in a bloodless invasion. As the war droned on, they became more and more organized. The French Resistance got heavy play in wartime propaganda and postwar movies, and it was a major operation. French resistants slowed down the 2nd SS Panzer Division, as seen, and sabotaged vast stretches of the national railway system. But it was not as gigantic as movies would have it. The unfortunate truth is that most people in France simply tried to get on with their lives as best as they could during the occupation. For the first couple of years, it was not especially harsh, and French bigshots actually lived well -- Jean Paul Sartre had his black market booze, Coco Chanel had a German officer as a boyfriend, and Pablo Picasso toiled away at his art. With the Reichmark pegged artificially high and German troops buying up everything in sight, some French businesses enjoyed prosperity. In addition, Marshal Petain, the hero of Verdun, was the popular and uniting leader that France had lacked since...well, Marshal Petain had been the hero of Verdun. Vichy rule was everything the Third Republic was not -- orderly, obedient, and committed to eliminating Jews, Communists, and the British. The result was the French Legion Voluntaire, the 638th Regiment, which went to Russia as part of the German Army, and the SS Charlemagne Division. But as the war went on, German occupation became increasingly heavy-handed. French POWs did not come home from German factories. German troops stopped paying for things and started simply requisitioning them. Petain was discredited as a weak and senile collaborationist. Another factor was that the French resistance was dominated by Communists, and they only became anti-German after the invasion of Russia in 1941. That was a major purpose of the Paris revolt in 1944 -- to install a "Commune" before De Gaulle could arrive. Bottom line: if you occupy a nation, but leave the people alone, they will go about their business and leave you alone.
One of the major reasons for the rapid growth of the Maquis was the STO - compulsory labour in Germany - and many young people took to the hills rather than go to Germany. The Maquis was mainly a southern development and also to an extent in Brittany, as much of the countryside in the north was not suitable for this kind of activity. Their participation in active resistance was variable, from nil through to the major fighting on the Vercors plateau. Resistance operated in a number of ways, starting, of course, from a nil base in 1940. The early resistance was politically based and mainly took the form of producing underground newspapers and other publicity. Of course, up to November 1942 this was a more clear cut issue in the occupied zone than in Vichy France, where resistance before the Germans occupied the zone involved taking a position of opposition to the Vichy government, or at least the worst of Vichy collaboration. Even this was not that clear cut. The resistance groups could hardly set up recruiting offices, so people might join a group which might not really represent their views as it was the only one they were in contact with. The Communist led FTP, for instance, might not have tolerated anti-Communists, but the majority of its members were not members of the PCF. Jean Moulin's task was to unite the various resistance groups which were largely formed on a political basis into a more unified body under the direction of the Free French in London. At the same time, more active networks were set up both by the groups in being and by SOE's F and RF sections. these might be tasked with intelligence gathering, sabotage, running escape networks and so on. There were, of course, some major setbacks when some of these networks were broken by the Germans. Finally, there was the Secret Army. The Communist led groups engaged in armed resistance from the entry of the USSR into the war, but the policy of the Free French was to wait for the invasion. Much of Brittany and southern France was liberated by the resistance before allied troops arrived, but this was to an extent because there were no major German units to confront.
Probably the most definitive information on the French Resistance is to be found in documents relative to the exploits of 'The White Rabbit' (the code name of Wing Commander F.F.E. Yeo-Thomas) who was parachuted into France (several times) as a member of the Special Operations Executive. He was responsible for organising all the separate factions of the French Resistance into one combined 'secret army'. The Wing Commander, "Tommy" as he was known, was awarded the G.C., M.C. and Bar, Legion d'Honneur, Croix de Guerre with Palms, and the Polish Gold Cross of Merit for his efforts. Additionally he was offered the D.S.O which he turned down as the big-wigs would not let him wear his M.C. when he was France. An extract from the 'London Gazette': The KING has been graciously pleased to award the George Cross to Acting Wing Commander Forest Frederick Edward YEO-THOMAS, M.C. (89215), Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve." Captured by the Gestapo, for months he was submitted to the most horrific torture in an attempt to get him to spill his unparalleled knowledge of the Resistance, but he refused to crack. Finally he was sentenced to death, and sent to Buchenwald, one of the most infamous German concentration camps. The story of his endurance, and his survival against all the odds - as originally published in 1952, by Cassell & Co, "The White Rabbit" and reprinted in 2001 - is well worth a read being an inspiring study in the triumph of the human spirit over the most terrible adversity.
So you could possibly argue that if the Germans had treated France as an ally, and not a conquered territory, they would have had less to worry about?
Originally posted by Dave Leonard@Sep 19 2004, 05:00 AM So you could possibly argue that if the Germans had treated France as an ally, and not a conquered territory, they would have had less to worry about? [post=28221]Quoted post[/post] Well, German occupation was initially not too oppressive, but still by the end of 1940 some level of resistance was beginning to form. Although the majority of the French population accepted the situation as it was, there were elements who never did. I don't see how France could have been raised to the status of full blown Axis ally. Collaboration and benign neutality, yes, but not the same thing. And the demands of the German war economy meant that they had to take more and more from the occupied countries, so conditions progressively deteriorated.
In this book it gives a detailed veiw of the French Resistance and portrays it as being fairly disorganised, many personal agendas etc. This was because it was purposely designed not to be centralized but to have local groups all doing their own thing. It couldn't have last very long had it been centralized.
It is no sens to let hear that Resistants were bandits (except from the Nazi point of view) and these people came from all the social and occupational circles. It is evident that the Spanish anarchists then, from the invasion of the USSR, the communists very early joined Resistance. De Gaulle made so that Jean Moulin was parachuted in January, 1942 in France to organize networks there and unify them what was not simple (to put all right communist FTP, French officers, intellectuals etc. was an immense job) The first forms of the Resistance were to help French soldiers prisoners in Germany who escaped to join the free zone. The Resistance represented 3 % of the French people The Resistance represented from 2.5 to 3 % French people (41 million inhabitants in 1939) but we too often forget the Passive resistance (assistant to prisoners to join London or North Africa, sabotage of war material in factories, slowing down of cadences, slowing down of the SNCF(FRENCH NATIONAL RAILWAY COMPANY), immense work of information, Feeding, dressing, accommodating the Resistance fighters…) The 2,5 or 3% of French people who were implied in the active Resistance wouldn’t have been able to do anything without the population’ participation (it was also passive Resistance) Ike himself Ike said that he estimated the work of the Resistants as infantry 15 divisions. 15 divisions was probably overestimated for political reasons but historians agree generally on 10 divisions. Let us not forget that the parachutings of weapons were rarer than what shows the cinema. The Allies distrusted the Resistance in which we found a large number of communists and anarchists Certain regions (Alsace, Moselle, Vosges) had absolutely no help outside. Very good books written by renowned historians exist, unofrtunatly those I know are of course in French. Ouf ! Even with oneline dictionaries, such a text is difficult for me !
A GS59 Tu peux aussi mentionner l'aide apportée aux aviateurs alliés qu'il faut aider à regagner la Grande-Bretagne. You must add the help given to British and US aviators, when their plane is shot. Hard job, and very dangerous for civilian people. May be the movie of Melville can give an idea of what was this fight : "L'armée des ombres" ("Army of the shadows").
Everything I have read tends to support the disorganised manner of French Resistance, generaly aligned along existing political lines. The roles of Moulin and Yeo Thomas to try and 'unify' the resistance must have been nigh on impossible, at least until D-Day was imminent. Similar problems existed in the Balkans but that is a different matter. I feel I have never really understood the Vichy situation despite having read a couple of books on the subject many years ago. However I do think it very harsh for anyone to criticise a measure of 'collaboration' and maybe 'passive resistance' when I strongly suspect a very similar attitude would have existed in Britain had we been invaded in 1940. Mike
Everything I have read tends to support the disorganised manner of French Resistance, generaly aligned along existing political lines. The roles of Moulin and Yeo Thomas to try and 'unify' the resistance must have been nigh on impossible, at least until D-Day was imminent. Similar problems existed in the Balkans but that is a different matter. I feel I have never really understood the Vichy situation despite having read a couple of books on the subject many years ago. However I do think it very harsh for anyone to criticise a measure of 'collaboration' and maybe 'passive resistance' when I strongly suspect a very similar attitude would have existed in Britain had we been invaded in 1940. Mike No, the collaboration would not have been the same in Great Britain simply because France was in the hands of Pétain and because this bastard was profoundly an anti-Semite. That legitimized the attitude of many too cowardly or too much interested ($) French people. Vichy government was much more far than asked for it the Nazis... Fortunately, other French people saved the honor by in French Frenches Forces or by joint Resistance. When it was a question of killing Krauts or of destroying material, various movements generally found agreements. Before D-day the coordination had become very effective and all the actions asked by the allies (delay march of Pz Div to beaches, destructions of communications etc.) were perfectly made. Don't forget SOE ans SAS teams were there and helped this coordination.
The Resistance was assisted by Jedburgh and Inter-Allied Missions - some of which were extremely successful others had patchy results due to various factors - the most common of which were. 1. Being deployed to late. 2. Insufficient supplies being dropped when requested 3. Communications failures due to radios being damaged on drops 4. SAS or OG operations bring attention to area in which Jeds were trying to organise and arm resistants, making resupply difficult.
The results as the value of different Maquis were very different and it is easily understandable. To have as leader a career officer or a labor-union leader, to be in a geographical sector which is helped by allied parachutings or in a sector without assistant) to be supervised by SOE ans SAS or not, did of course sure the difference
The oppostion to the occupation of France is complex as is the reasons of those who thought that they were the legitimate government to rule over France in an assumed Franco /German partnership. Moulin was de Gaulles covert representative in France from January 1942.His role was to unify the various resistances forces in France such as Combat,Liberation (their underground newspaper still exists as a Paris daily) and FTP groups under a common cause, namely, MUR (Movements Units de Resistance) and draw them into de Gaulle's BCRA,(Bureau Central de Rensignements et d'Action). There were other resistant groups,some pulling their weight,some, according to the people who were the most active,not.For instance,some such as the ORA (Organisation de Resistance de l'Armee),a resistant group comprised mainly of officers who were members of the German agreed,Armistice Army,controlled by Vichy were seen as sitting on the fence and assessing the balance of power.Such people were accused of being "late" resistants De Gaulle recorded, postwar that overall the resistance amounted to the strength of two army divisions.Further it is a fact that had there not been an Allied accepted French resistance movement against Vichy and the German occupying forces,then France would have been an occupied country after the German collapse. One point about the FTP,they were a courageous group of people and were gallantly led but their patriotism ovecame,at times,their rationality in the planning of action and at times their involvement could lead to disasterous consequences for their men and the civilian population.However,it has to be said that in the end they had to abide by SOE F and RF Section agent directives and objectives, otherwise they would not receive arm and supply drops. The FTP were mainly communist and the official Communist Party policy saw the conflict as being one between National Socialism and Western capitalism and from the arrangement between Hitler and Stalin did not feature too greatly in anti German sentiment.By June 1941,this policy was to change. If you take an overall view of resistance in France,you will find at the beginning,the majority of people in the field were working class,teachers,trade unionists (Veny group springs to mind), civil servants,students and some former officers who would not accept the Armistice terms and the dishonour to France.If you then look at the population as a whole the figure comes to about 5%.This figure was enhanced by the German introduction of STO and to some extent by the occupation of unoccupied zone in November 1942. If you then look at Vichy,the intellectual support came about from the assessment that there was only two alternatives for government,Maxism on one hand and National Socialism on the other hand and the latter would put France into their rightful place at the head of Europe,as a partner at the side of National Socialism.To this end,the Vichy leadership often expressed, at the time, when the future of Britain looked bleak,their declaration for a German victory over the British. Further, the Vichy core, to be, detested democracy and their overt anti semitism sentiments resulted their opposition to the Popular Front of Leon Blum from as early as 1936.The Spanish Civil War additionally influenced the French right wing supporters who would eventually emerge as Vichyites into anti communists, something that Vichy would put into action along with the persecution of the Jews. Petain received general support because he was "the Marchal" and a hero of the Great War.Others saw that they could play a part in the new France by collaborating on a personal level or as industrialists.All were seduced by an idealogy that gave them little in return and bled the country white by excessive occupation costs, the looting of her raw materials and manpower and the indiscriminate slaughter of her civilians. The Gestapo,it has been reported ran France with less than a 1000 SD personnel and this task was only manageable by the collaboration of the French Police.Some police were very loyal to France and without doubt provided valuable assistance to the resistants but their were some police chiefs and mayors who were highly political towards the ideology and followed the directions from Vichy with the highest motivation. Now as regards,collaboration here.We can never tell but we can use the yardstick of those British Hitler sycophants and his admirers who were not hesititant to express their endorsement of Hitler and the new Germany, prior to the war,during and after,we had to deal with these by the 18B Regulation. Thinking about it rationally,yes it could have happened here as it happened in every occupied country in Europe and Russia.
Am currently reading the book Das Reich, the march of the 2nd SS Pz Div through France, June 1944. .../... The impression that this book gave me was that the early resistance were really bandits that now had a pretext to wage personal wars against anyone and everyone in the name of patriotisim. It was only leading up to June 44 that the resistance gained any credible momentum. Any thoughts? Nothing can't be more wrong! These "bandits" as well said, were more inclined to joint the french Gestapo of Bonny/Lafont (La Carlingue). And later the infamous Milice of Joseph Darnand.
Another phrase is "terrorists", the label used by the German occupiers and Vichy to describe any opposition to the Third Reich and Petain's regime.This description was used by the Germans and Vichy as what what we might call,PR.In really it was propaganda designed to capture the minds and support of the ordinary French civilian to their cause.It suited the Germans and Vichy to refer to communist resistants as "bandits or terrorists",after all both regimes were waging a war of ideoloy against communism. It should be remembered for some in France,as far as they were concerned,it was far better to be passive and sooner or later the nightmare would be over.For others,the circumstances required an opposition to Vichy and the occupier. I certainly would not describe them as bandits or terrorists.That is the language of the invader,occupier and their Vichy coherts. Indeed there were some on both sides who profitted from their involvement in their respective organisations. Instances of action taken against those who purported to be resistants and were not,intrinsically,are well documented. Incidentally, quite a number of resistants in the South West were Spanish republications who had fled across the border from Franco's rule.These were citizens of a democratic country whose government had been overthrown by a military dictatorship which was allied, to some extent with Hitler.They were in France having been forced to flee from Spain and Franco's oppression. Regarding the Bony/Lafont gang,these tended to report to no one apart from their German masters and in reality were a "elite gang" of underground criminals recruited by the Germans to eliminated resistants and anybody else who stood in their way of plundering.Not likely that the peasant/communist FTP types of metropolitan France would be found in this organisation which largely operated in Paris and around the capital.The prerequisite for admission were a criminal background with a smattering of ideology or sycophancy in relation to the Marchal. It is true that after June 1944,that the Milice were still attracting volunteeers when the writing was on the wall.Many were attracted to the Milice out of support for the Vichy regime and the sycophancy towards the Marchal and its elitism.Many also joined the rersistance when the writing was on the wall for the invader,from the ranks of the passive and from Vichy.These late entrants were not looked on at the time and now in history, as having the patriotic considerations which brought people together after June 1940.These people had their own historical tag, "Resistants de la Derniere" Regarding the birth of the resistance,it had many dimensions,the communist dimension only grew in the aftermath of June 1941.De Gaulle from June 1940 was determined to place on record that the Vichy goverment was not a legitimate government and as such had no legal right to effect an armistice with Germany.De Gaulle's self imposed task was to coordinate the resistance to Vichy and Germany and he achieved this through Jean Moulin effecting a resistance struture.Before that,in October 1941,the British dropped the first load of arms to the resistance at Villamblard in the Dordogne.The resistance would have to come a long way in playing an active part in defeating Nazism but it would be incorrect to think that the resistance only played a part from June 1944. For the record,"bandit and terrorist" groups had little support unless they were within the De Gaulle organisation,later to be designed the FFI.This means if they did not toe the line as regards official policy or refused direction and training from the SOE agents,they were not recognised and were denied arms support.It has to be said even with Allied direction and support,some of the FTP commanders were reckless and in some cases had not thought out the possible effects of mounting an operation. Finally who were the "English terrorists"
The Gestapo,it has been reported ran France with less than a 1000 SD personnel The German Security apparatus was fairly sophisticated in addition to the Gestapo/SD there were various other units such as the Geheim Feld Polizei - secret military police, Abwehr Counter Espionage, Railway Police, Radio Security etc, in addition much of the 'strong-arm' stuff was done by French in German employ such as the Bony-Lafont gang as well as the Milice. For anyone with an interest in France during this period the film Lacomb Lucien is well worth watching.
One thing that has always troubled me was in Vietnam the French worked with the Japanese. They remained in positions like the police and local governments. It freed up more Japanese to destroy Vietnam and British Forces. Ho Chi Minh worked with Allied Forces to defeat the Japanese with the promise after the war Vietnam would be a free and independent nation. Instead they broke their promise to Ho Chi Minh and the traitorous French were left to go on with business as usual. Had the Allies kept their promise to Ho Chi Minh maybe there would have been a Democratic Vietnam, but they double crossed him. The French remained in control until he drove them out. Instead of a strong Democratic Nation we now have a Communist Vietnam and much of it because of the French in Vietnam during the war.
ayac Junior Member "Hard job, and very dangerous for civilian people." It was NO picnic for the British and American aviators either. Europe is free today because of the British and American aviators', Naval personnel and troopers' whose blood was given to free every inch of Europe and all the countries taken over by the Nazis. It was "Hard job, and very dangerous for ALL THE ALLIED FORCES TOO!"
ayac Junior Member "Hard job, and very dangerous for civilian people." It was NO picnic for the British and American aviators either. Europe is free today because of the British and American aviators', Naval personnel and troopers' whose blood was given to free every inch of Europe and all the countries taken over by the Nazis. It was "Hard job, and very dangerous for ALL THE ALLIED FORCES TOO!" I would also like to point out that if we are giving credit to ALL THE ALLIED FORCES then the Soviets should also share the praise. Given that they took on the majority of the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht for 4 continuous years they are entitled to the same credit.
