Were German Prisoners of War killed near Arras, May 1940?

Deleted

 

Yes mate

 

I have not heard of this before, so my reaction could be just that of an Englishman wanting to believe that the British army had more about them to commit such a crime. I don't dispute the fact that prisoners appear to have been killed later in the war. However bearing in kind that men do terrible things to each other in war, many questions arise as to the accuracy of this particular accusation.

Does the original report say the Germans were "stripped to the skin" by the French? Could this be a misinterpretation of the prisoners being stripped of their equipment?

Overall it seems unlikely that a massacre on the scale suggested would not have come to light almost immediately.

The Nazi's would have thoroughly exploited such an event with photographic proof.

As the British were retreating, who disposed of the victims? It seems unlikely that men callous enough to cold bloodedly murder 400 prisoners would be too concerned about burying them, even superficially. The men who murdered the Warwicks and Cheshires certainly made no effort to hide their crime.

With 400 supposedly involved, the likelihood of survivors would be very high.There were British survivors of Wormhoudt and American survivors of Malmedy, both of which involved smaller numbers than alleged here.

The Nazi's were not reluctant in exposing atrocities by others, as Katyn Wood evidences. The opportunity to point to such a huge crime would not have been passed up.

 

The Nazi's were not reluctant in exposing atrocities by others, as Katyn Wood evidences. The opportunity to point to such a huge crime would not have been passed up.


Strangely enough - on occasion they did.

At the Armistice in June, they among other things took possession of a trainload of government papers at the marshalling yards at La Charitie outside Paris - including three wagonloads of paperwork confirming the pre-war military conventions established between France and Switzerland, details of the French staff trips to Switzerland to survey prospective defensive areas, and all the maps to French military standards of Swiss territory and defences that had been prepared for the French Divisions that should ideally have inervened to support Switzerland if it was invaded.

I know this doesn't sound like much - but in international terms it was a war crime as of 1940...and at any point in the next couple of years the Germans could have used this to collapse the Swiss federal government, and force the sacking of Henri Guisan, the Swiss Cammander-In-Chief who drove the Swiss defence policy of Dissuasion....and in turn probably force Switzerland to capitulate to German demands more than they did - economically anyway...

And yet they sat on it; until after 1943 anyway, by which time it had lost all usefulness as a lever. "Dissuasion" was the policy by which the Swiss convinced the Germans that despite everything they could get from a conquered Switzerland - the taking of it would be far too costly; it involved a strategy evolved by Guisan of fortifying the Swiss Oberland with first surface, then underground defences, linking older forts together...and together with moving half of Switzerland's Field Army into it on a permanent (and costly) basis...and on the other hand trading freely enough with Germany that it further reinforced the idea of what Germany would loose by embarking on military action to take it for free

Germany had the material in it's hands to brush away Guisan and his strategy, before the Swiss National Redoubt was developed enough by 1941 to occupy...and yet they didn't. There were quite large Nationalist and pro-German movements in Switzerland, tensions between officers from German-speaking Eastern Switzerland and the French speaking West, and several offciers' conspiracies during the war aimed at changing Switzerland's Neutral stance...ALL of who's positions would have been greatly reinforced by Germany making the La Charitie files public...but they didn't.

It was one of the great missed opportunities of the war - for Germany to gain by politics and by evidence of an international crime what Guisan made them believe they couldn't gain by force....and yet they let it be.

There's simply no good accounting for some of what Germany did or didn't do during the war Some of it's ommissions and commissions defy a good explanation.

 

I was going to type this out but perhaps it would be better hearing it direct ,as it is now available via the IWM,not 6th DLI but 8th DLI,Same location though,not 400 but with the passage of time..... regretable all the same.

0.26.00 REEL 6

IWM interview | Imperial War Museums

action at Duisans cemetery and story of shooting wounded German soldiers following incident in which British soldier was shot in back; confused nature of situation
Best Wishes

Jim

 

Deleted

 

Periodically we get these stories.. All types! How the Germans landed here. How we killed them. How we did this and that... Quite frankly, I sometimes wonder where in heaven these stories come form. For the Veterans talk amongst themselves where they will not talk to those that had not seen action.... We discuss everything about war and where they have been and what they did. Yet nowhere have I encountered stories of British soldier committing atrocities, or killing prisoners .I have no doubt that there are occasion where in rage there have been isolated instances.

What annoys me a little, is the assumption that we were an undisciplined lot..That goes to show how little is known about ARMY DISCIPLINE.

I can tell you exactly what would have happened, had we gone round killing prisoners. Our feet would not have touched the ground on our way to the lock up....
Seriously..Ask the other Vets here fir theier views...

 

Jim,

Thanks for posting this link, it is an interesting account of a regretable incident of the type that I imagine could happen quite easily in combat.

From an evidence based research approach, this alone does not stack up to a 'massacre of 400 German prisoners' and neither does it add anything to the 'retaliation for Arras' theory for the subsequent murder of British POWs.

The interviewee states that he doesn't know what happened to the prisoners handed over to the French, nor can he state how many were handed over. It is unclear from his testimony whether he personally, as opposed to his unit, was involved in the escort and/or transfer of German POWs to the French. Alas, it also does not explain the various later published statements of 400 German POWs being taken back to DUNKIRK and then to the UK.

Several sources suggest that the troops in the cemetery at DUISANS were those survivors from the 5.9 inch howitzer convoy that the 12th Lancers attacked on the morning of the 21st May. These German troops are universally thought to be from an Army, not SS unit, and evidence from the SS-Totenkopfdivision backs this up - since they were nowhere near DUISANS at that time on the 21st, and did not (at this time in the war) possess this type of artillery. This rules out any direct 'retaliation' motive between DUISANS and the Totenkopf's atrocities later.

It is difficult to continue to debate this issue without some hard figures. Does anyone have a reputable and reliable source for casualties and POWs within the combatant German units? All of the published figures would suggest that the massacre was a total fiction, but also suggest that nowhere near 400 prisoners were taken.

So where can we go from here?

Best regards, Nick

Hi Nick,

Totally agree with all of your comments posted above.I posted a link simply to confirm an `atrocity` had taken place at the stated time and place according to the DLI soldier..the figure of 400 is a figure I`ve never really entertained (as previous postings) but 400 or 4 this action was still an `atrocity`.
When I found this link I could have just forgotton about it,not posted any links and just got on with things but I had previously refused to believe that any incident of this nature had ever occurred at the cemetery ..but an incident not of the magnitude of the original accusation but an unsavoury one all the same unfortunately did occur.
Where do we go from here? Good question the answer is I dont really know..I am aware of an investigation into the claims at the time and some reports/testimonies are still held at the DRO in Durham City..perhaps I`ll take a look next time I visit I`ll keep you informed

Best Wishes


Jim

 

Periodically we get these stories.. All types! How the Germans landed here. How we killed them. How we did this and that... Quite frankly, I sometimes wonder where in heaven these stories come form. For the Veterans talk amongst themselves where they will not talk to those that had not seen action.... We discuss everything about war and where they have been and what they did. Yet nowhere have I encountered stories of British soldier committing atrocities, or killing prisoners .I have no doubt that there are occasion where in rage there have been isolated instances.

What annoys me a little, is the assumption that we were an undisciplined lot..That goes to show how little is known about ARMY DISCIPLINE.

I can tell you exactly what would have happened, had we gone round killing prisoners. Our feet would not have touched the ground on our way to the lock up....
Seriously..Ask the other Vets here fir theier views...

Hello Brian,
Thanks for that,the lad in the link was a DLI prewar veteran who went on to win a Military Medal in Normandy before,like yourself,sustaining serious wounds and was brought home.The recollections he has made deal with over 16 years service only 30 secs or so of the tape deals with this incident he does not refer to the killing of prisoners ...only the killing of a German soldier pretending to be dead who shot a DLI Corporal in the back as he was hiding out amongst the dead and wounded ...he was killed along with the wounded that would have been concealing him. I appreciate the circumstances but regret the consequences of the action.This was not an incident where British Soldiers had deliberately set out to murder prisoners...heat of battle? I dont know I`ve never (Thankfully) been in one so cannot comment.Nik asked `Where we go from here..I replied I did`nt know based on your comment
"I can tell you exactly what would have happened, had we gone round killing prisoners. Our feet would not have touched the ground on our way to the lock up...."

May I suggest we take the word of a British Soldier who was in combat and leave it there? Thanks Brian


Best wishes

Jim

 

I'm with Sapper on this one.

I served in the First Gulf War and we took many prisoners. Even though we knew, and later it was proved correct, how we would have been treated had we been captured, it never entered our heads to kill prisoners. oh yes there was the odd kick up the jacksey and clip around the ear, but the thought of killing the snivelling, scared and crying never entered our heads.

I had friends who served in the Falklands campaign and while a number of incidents happened after the regrouping after the assault phase, afterwards no one wanted to kill the prisoners, although a bit of pushing and shoving took place during repatriation.

Discipline, well some, if not all, German units were subject to military discipline.

I personally believe it is a cultural thing. The Germans, particularly the Waffen SS, believed themselves to be a cut above the rest (that is of course before they had to be bolstered by foriegn imports, French, Spanish, Walloon, Scandanavian, Cossack (Slavs? Untermench, mmmmm!) Croats Serbians etc, etc.).

I am of the belief that whilst it is possible that British soldiers could be capable of killing some enemy after intensive combat, it is unlikely that they would do it in the cold light of day after combat; although someone out there will mabey prove me wrong - I hope not.

 

Verriers. I am not doubting your version, nor did I mention it .But I do query the killing of 400 prisoners....The consequences of that could never be hidden, and discipline would have ensures the truth was known.

If anyone is in any doubt about army discipline in action, then let me tell you that a while after the landings in Normandy, a company notice was made and pinned on various half tracks etc: saying that a Glass House for military disciple had already been set up on French Soil. Seriously!
The taboo against killing a prisoner was so strong, that it was never mentioned as a possibility.Did man kill inthe heart of battle? Too bloody right they did. Did the odd event take place that should not. Bloody sure they did. But not in cold blood.. That is murder.... The thing about these stories is that it besmirches the reputation of our men.The British soldier despite what is written, is a merciful creature at heart....

funny enough as this may sound..I know of a great many times were our men have gone out of their way to help the wounded enemy, and have treated them correctly.. Killing them was never thought of. We just did not do things that way.. But I can only speak for my own knowledge, and that of a great many Veterans mates.... Many of whom would be appalled at the thought of killing prisoners... In action? Too damned right we would, but after? NO

 

Lads, this discussion has moved away from the specific incident and wandered off into the realm of "could British Army soldiers have shot prisoner". In other words its off topic. whatever about the General discussion of British treatment of Captured Soldiers can we get back on the issue of the ALLEGED killing of 400 German Prisoners?

 

My last post did exactly that........First words .. I really do not think it ever happened ..... What I Certainly know, is that when Authors write books they slant it towards the readers they are aiming at. if a little imagination is used now and again, perhaps instead of poetic license, it could be described as "Authors License" These writer aim their books towards the readership they need to engage with... So if a little imagination is used now and again... would it be hurtful if it sold a lot more books?
You bet your Bibby it would. And you all know it...

 

My last post did exactly that........First words .. I really do not think it ever happened ..... What I Certainly know, is that when Authors write books they slant it towards the readers they are aiming at. if a little imagination is used now and again, perhaps instead of poetic license, it could be described as "Authors License" These writer aim their books towards the readership they need to engage with... So if a little imagination is used now and again... would it be hurtful if it sold a lot more books?
You bet your Bibby it would. And you all know it...
Brian, not all Authors take artistic license, and from your post there you seem to be saying that........ I'm sure there are a few authors who post here who might beg to differ?

 

I speak not against anyone that posts here. But of Authors that changed history to sell books, and they do just that... Seriously; I have a fine long term memory and a lousy short term one. So I am quite angered when I read about certain things that never happened, but are the result of authors quoting each others sources... Just imagine what the bible was like before it was translated dozens of times..
let me explain At times I have given interviews and the result has been several different reports some of them printing something that was never said..... The N.O.W has nothing on some of these writers....

 

Look ..... More than one member has posted evidence of British Soldiers killing German Prisoners of War on here, one was an eye witness account of a forum vet who has said he saw a German PoW being throttled with his own green scarf, so in short it did happen. I even witnessed some shit in Iraq that shouldn't have happened and a blind eye was turned. If you've not seen the threads/posts then you don't visit the forum enough or look hard enough.

This thread is about a specific incident that is alledged to have taken place in 1940 just prior to Dunkirk. There is only one member on here that I'm aware of that was in France during 1940 and he hasn't posted. Vet or not none of us were there so speculations and opinions is just that, speculation and opinions which are obviously not fact.

So please lets get back to the DLI and the alleged massacre of 400 PoW's with any hard facts. Feel free to discuss if the British Army could kill PoW's in another thread - I'll even start one for you if you want?

Jim- If you come across any ref to any files at Kew let me know, I'll happily copy and post them.

Cheers
Andy

 

It is a shame that these general discussions have clouded a thread about a specific incident.

The IWM account doesn't seem to me to actually be an 'atrocity'. The victims involved were not disarmed prisoners in custody. As far as I can understand, they simply had the misfortune to be alongside one of their own troops who opened fire with deadly effect during a 'mopping up' operation. Fire was returned until it was certain that the threat no longer existed.

The force used may have been out of proportion to the threat (I presonally don't think so) but who are we to judge and condemn at this distance in time. Whatever it was that occurred, I cannot see it as having happened in cold blood.

 

Look ..... More than one member has posted evidence of British Soldiers killing German Prisoners of War on here, one was an eye witness account of a forum vet who has said he saw a German PoW being throttled with his own green scarf, so in short it did happen. I even witnessed some shit in Iraq that shouldn't have happened and a blind eye was turned. If you've not seen the threads/posts then you don't visit the forum enough or look hard enough.

This thread is about a specific incident that is alledged to have taken place in 1940 just prior to Dunkirk. There is only one member on here that I'm aware of that was in France during 1940 and he hasn't posted. Vet or not none of us were there so speculations and opinions is just that, speculation and opinions which are obviously not fact.

So please lets get back to the DLI and the alleged massacre of 400 PoW's with any hard facts. Feel free to discuss if the British Army could kill PoW's in another thread - I'll even start one for you if you want?

Jim- If you come across any ref to any files at Kew let me know, I'll happily copy and post them.

Cheers
Andy

Well said Andy. Jim has said it happened, but to 400 PoW's - I think not.

But I would like to say that Brian gave a veterans point of view on how these occurences happen or otherwise and I for one appreciated his veterans point of view. What I don't appreciate is people 'pissing' on his and other people who lived through these things point of view.

Best,

Steve.

 

It is a shame that these general discussions have clouded a thread about a specific incident.

The IWM account doesn't seem to me to actually be an 'atrocity'. The victims involved were not disarmed prisoners in custody. As far as I can understand, they simply had the misfortune to be alongside one of their own troops who opened fire with deadly effect during a 'mopping up' operation. Fire was returned until it was certain that the threat no longer existed.

The force used may have been out of proportion to the threat (I presonally don't think so) but who are we to judge and condemn at this distance in time. Whatever it was that occurred, I cannot see it as having happened in cold blood.

Hello Rich,

I agree, but it is not fair to ignore a veterans perspective; they were there, they've seen it, they have a view; a view that none of us that were not there can really comprehend.

It's relevant!

Best,

Steve.

 

With respect Steve, I haven't 'ignored' anyone or anything. However, I do feel that any veteren who posts on a forum in 2011 tacitly accepts that he will be corresponding with younger persons who weren't there.

As I said, I find it a shame that this particular thread in the 1940 section has not been allowed to stand alone with corroborated evidence about the incident in question Had this been allowed to occur then the thread would gently have slipped down the forum and would only have been examined by those who wish to know more about this particular incident.

My Grandfather was an Infantry battalion RSM who was in France in 1940 (as a PSM) and I heard enough over the years to have a fairly good understanding about how strict a well-run battalion was in all forms of discipline but I feel that we do the cause of the Durhams involved in the Arras counter-attack little good by turning the thread into a general discussion about whether any British troops could have been capable of poor conduct under any circumstances.

Rich