Were German Prisoners of War killed near Arras, May 1940?

Finishing 'Last stand at La Paradis by Richard Lane' today between work I came across a ref to a DLI massacre that apparently was used as an excuse for the massacre of the Norfolks and a few other less notable incidents that took place in the area on the same day like 21 Royal Scots who were defending on one of the Norfolks Regiments flank.

I thought this was just an excuse for something that has no excuse to a 'compus mentus' human being. However further reading revealed there may be some truth in the matter....

The alledged incident happened after the british Counter-Attack at Arras. Some DLI veterans were interviewed by author Nicholas Harman and they told him that their unit, "Did murder an unknown number of Germans who had surrendered, and were legitimate prisoners of war".

The Germans had apparently been captured at various points during the DLI's advance but when the DLI was forced to retreat they, "could not take the prisoners back with them, so they killed the SS men rather than set them free to fight again".

Harman published the story in 'Dunkirk, The Necessary Myth' in 1980. It then appeared in a further two books - Ronald Aitkin's Pillar of Fire: Dunkirk 1940 published in 1990 and sitting on my book shelf waiting to be read and Angus Calder's The Myth of the Blitz published in 1991.

However in 1997 Prof. Brian Bond published an essay 'The British Field Army in France and Belgium 1939-1940' refuting the accussations made in Harmans book.

So over to you lot....Anyone else heard of this incident before?

 

Yes, I've got a copy of Harman's book somewhere. It ALSO mention a reliable report by Jimmy Langley, written up in detail in his postwar memoir, of him detailing a number of soldiers to escort several dozen German prisoners into the Dunkirk Perimeter - with a chit to be given to a named British officer. Later, when he retired into the Perimeter himself, he tracked down the officer who reported that the soldiers had arrived....but no prisoners...

I've been keeping a weather-eye open over the last few years for a copy of Langley's memoir, but haven't gotten a copy yet.

 

This would be 6th DLI from 151st Brigade presumably ?

I haven't heard of the accusation, nor read Harman's book (the prejudicial title tends to put me off to be honest as it makes it clear he is intending to prove a viewpoint). Surely if as many as 400 prisoners had been killed the German media would have reported it ? I would also have expected it to have entered local legend around Arras. As we know from the smaller massacres of British troops, these things are not that easy to cover up.

Blaxland in his 1973 "Destination Dunkirk" makes mention of the prisoners taken by 6 DLI in Achicourt and Agny "where they brought the column's total of prisoners to almost 400." Generally references to the taking of prisoners by the British in 1940 (and it cannot have been many) makes great play on their intelligence value or the morale boosting effect for those units able to bring them in.

To further quote Blaxland "7th Panzer Division...173 were...captured. The remainder of the four hundred prisoners, whom the 50th Division were to retain with much pride must therefore have been largely from the SS Death's Head Division".

I'm also a little surprised that there should be specific reference to killing SS men as I would not have thought that the units had a particular significance to the British soldier on the ground at that stage of the campaign.

Four hundred prisoner deaths must be visible in German records.

I would be interested to read what Brian Bond has to say.

 

I've just looked up the incident in Pillar of Fire and it only briefly (a few lines) mentions the capture of some 400 prisoners at the top of the page and near the bottom mentions that other units in the Totenkopf Div. suggest their was a massacre. Nothing concrete in it.

It would be interesting to know who the DLI vets are that said it happened. I wonder if Jim knows anything about this.

 

Four hundred prisoner deaths must be visible in German records.


Indeed. And I'm sure Eicke would have happily dwelt on such an issue.
Fact is the Germans did collect information on crimes against their own soldiers. They came to the conclusion that the material wouldn't suffice to bring any charge against the (western) allies. A number of 400 Ps/W murdered surely would lead to different conclusions.

 

Surely you mean 40 not 400 ????

There appears to be quite a few mentions of 400 Totenkopf prisoners captured by DLI after following up behind the Matilda's in Frankforce's counter-attack on the net but no mention of what happened to them afterwards.

 

The DLI mention several hundred prisoners being taken but no mention of their fate.

8 DLI witnessed some French tanks 'dealing with' over a hundred Germans who had 'taken refuge' in a cemetery near Duisans. The DLI rounded up only 18 survivors and handed them over to the French, who forced them to strip and lie face down until they were taken away.

Given the Germans' reaction to imagined slights (e.g. Eicke's dum-dums) no reasons spring to mind why they would suppress any actual massacres.

 

This would be 6th DLI from 151st Brigade presumably ?

I haven't heard of the accusation, nor read Harman's book (the prejudicial title tends to put me off to be honest as it makes it clear he is intending to prove a viewpoint). Surely if as many as 400 prisoners had been killed the German media would have reported it ? I would also have expected it to have entered local legend around Arras. As we know from the smaller massacres of British troops, these things are not that easy to cover up.

Blaxland in his 1973 "Destination Dunkirk" makes mention of the prisoners taken by 6 DLI in Achicourt and Agny "where they brought the column's total of prisoners to almost 400." Generally references to the taking of prisoners by the British in 1940 (and it cannot have been many) makes great play on their intelligence value or the morale boosting effect for those units able to bring them in.

To further quote Blaxland "7th Panzer Division...173 were...captured. The remainder of the four hundred prisoners, whom the 50th Division were to retain with much pride must therefore have been largely from the SS Death's Head Division".

I'm also a little surprised that there should be specific reference to killing SS men as I would not have thought that the units had a particular significance to the British soldier on the ground at that stage of the campaign.

Four hundred prisoner deaths must be visible in German records.

I would be interested to read what Brian Bond has to say.

I agree with your bit about questioning the significance of the SS in 1940 when their attrocities[real and partly 'mythical'] we were not generally known.I 'know' quite a few incidents when some prisoners were shot out of hand [usually SS and much later in the war when their reputation became well known,especially involving the Canadians]---I did overhear some DLI vets talking about some prisoners being shot[don't know where] but doubt it would be 400 anyway. As Drew said maybe Jim or a DLI vet could enlighten us, though not many vets like to recall or admit being involved such acts.

 

Hi Ranville..The bold text in the first post is apparently from some DLI vets according to the author.

Cheers
Andy

 

Hi Ranville..The bold text in the first post is apparently from some DLI vets according to the author.

Cheers
Andy
sorry andy---did'nt see that.------I guess anecdotal 'evidence' is always open to suspicion ,especially as time passes. Unless you were there i suppose we may be never really know.

 

Oh dear!......I knew this story would rear its ugly head again! In the 1980`s (and I wish I`d kept the cuttings) a national Newspaper ran this story when the book allegedly broke the story but as I remember it there was an investigation with many officers of the regiment consulted each one condemed the slur of such a fine regiment (their words not mine,honestly) the figure was indeed 400 men of the Totenkopf alledgedly massacred by the 6th DLI...400 ! you cannot hide 400 corpses and not be found out one day,for the Germans this would have made very Good propaganda ...if it were true....Who said it was`nt true...SS General Paul Hausser who poured scorn on the claims and added "The British Army in 1940 were a honourable foe"several surviving members of the totenkopf also denied the claim at the time.
It was claimed that the Durhams had murdered the 400 in a French graveyard just prior to the Le Paradis-Wormhoudt incidents.There is another book I believe titled `The Massacre that Never Was' which apparently destroys this bogus claim about the DLI. I`m sure that individual soldiers of whatever units occasionally took matters into their own hands but on a battalion scale with 400 men to kill and no survivours or witnesses..I doubt it.


Verrieres

 

Cheers Jim....Knöchlein's defence did bring it up at his trial, I guess it's not surprising really knowing he was going to have his neck stretched.

Any idea who the DLI Vets are/were who said it was true?

Regards
Andy

 

Cheers Jim....Knöchlein's defence did bring it up at his trial, I guess it's not surprising really knowing he was going to have his neck stretched.

Any idea who the DLI Vets are/were who said it was true?

Regards
Andy

Hi Drew,
No idea who the vets were if they were involved in murders then I am assuming that was their decision and not a direct order I believe the figure of ...400..may have came from Frankforces advance/counter attack where many books list 151 bde as capturing 400 prisoners and inflicting the same number of casualties on the Germans. Do you know what role Hausser had in 1940 was he directly involved in these actions?


Verrieres

 

Everything I posted in the original post is all I know mate. It is mentione din the last few pages of the book. No mention of 'on who's orders' etc.

The only other one I have that is mentioned in the first post is Pillar of Fire and it is no more than 5 lines and doesn't really mention a massacre.

 

Everything I posted in the original post is all I know mate. It is mentione din the last few pages of the book. No mention of 'on who's orders' etc.

The only other one I have that is mentioned in the first post is Pillar of Fire and it is no more than 5 lines and doesn't really mention a massacre.


No Problem Drew ..Thanks..I wish I had them newspaper cuttings I`m sure it was one of those Sunday rags

Verrieres

 

I think these will probably be the two key reads mate

1.) 'Dunkirk, The Necessary Myth'

2.) 'The British Field Army in France and Belgium 1939-1940'

Cheers
A

 

Thoughtfull post, I am suprised Herr Gobbels did not spout forth if that number of prisoners had been murdered, just think of the mileage he could have got out of this..

oldman

 

Give the propensity for the Nazi's over-zealous use of propagabda, and we have Katyn as an example I would doubt if this actually happened. The Germans would have shouted about it from every rooftop.

 

Okay, found my copy of Harman, it's the cheapo "import" Jove Books paperback (supermarkets used to be SO good for "defaced" imports a couple of decades ago, all those Yank paperback dumped abraod and struck off export charges by "defacing the....punching the covers with a hole-punch or notching one edge of the pages...gone are the days! )

The "action" starts around Page 80 of Chapter 6 "The Fight At Arras", and is concerned with events around the counterattack at Arras. Frankforce comprised two tank battalions and "two half trained infantry battalions" - the 6th and 8th DLI...

"These were Territorial Army battalions, recruited in the depressed mining and shipbuilding communities of north-east England. By tradition the maximum height for a light infantryman was five feet two inches (1.57 metres). County Durham, at the end of twenty years of catastrophic unemployment in the coal-pits and shipyards, had plenty of people small enough and willing to take a job as a soldier. But nobody had seriously expected them to have to fight. As miners, they had a reputation for building wonderful trenches, and they had spent the war so far employed as labourers. Every single platoon of both battalions was commnaded by a second lieutenant - lads fresh from grammar school, or clerks in their forties who had seen service in the previous war. Most platoons had no sergeant, and practically all non-commissioned officers were either First War veterans, in their forties or new recruits themselves. The Durhams had half the official supply of Bren light-machine guns, no radios and no supporting artillery. These deficiencies should be remembered in the record of their conduct in battle."


Harman goes on to describe to chaos in liaising with the French and coordinating the elements of the attack - but returns for a moment to the DLI...

"Franklyn too was having difficulty getting his troops into position in time. There were not enough trucks to transport the Durham Light Infantry. The inexperienced platoon officers had not ensured that the light infantrymen washed their feet and changed their socks regularly, Fair numbers of soldiers fell out of march with blisters. But the B
british went on alone, without the French."


...So everything was NOT rosy with the DLI even BEFORE the attack began :mellow: If you think about it, the failure to "foot check" according to Regs was a pretty serious one after the events of WWI. But with both battalions being run by inexperienced subalterns...

The attack began om May 21st...with the DLI starbing. Having bivouacied at Vimy idge they were suppsoed to march 15 kilometers to take up position behind the tanks - and were of course late. 6th Batt got very little through in the way of rations - the 6 DLI War Diary mentions having to milk cows to provide tea for breakfast"...while it appears 8th Batt got no rations throughout the entire day. Without radios there was no contact with the tanks ahead of them who had started off at 11AM...and they couldn';apparently have heard anyway, their batteries were flat! The joys of magneto iginition "thankfully" separate from the vehicle charging system...

As we know, the tanks did relatively well for a time - including runing into The Totenkopf Div., who's softskin convoy was shot up and a lot of fleeing W-SS shot down by the tanks as they fled. In supposedly the same state as the DLI - little training, few proper officers - the RTR was NOT impressed by their conduct, with klarge numbers hugging the ground feigning death or running up to the tanks surrendering.

6th and 8th DLI only caught up with the tanks at 4pm...and 8th DLI propmtly got into a "Blue on Blue" firefight with some French tanks! :mellow: Then the proverbial began to hit the fan...

It looks as if C Company, 8 DLI along with these french tanks - AFTER peace was declared between them! - attacked a german strongpoint in a cemetery near Duisans. According to Harman, citing the DLI official History word for word...

"When they occupied it (the cemetary - my note) they found only eighteen alive and the French stripped them to the skin and made them lie down on the road until it was time to take them away."

First breach of the Hague AND Geneva Conventions, with the DLI present and participating.

However, THIS is where thing start to get more than a litle hazy with respect to the number of POWs taken Harman says the war diary of the First Army Tank Brigade - the parent for the two RTR battalions - reports that JUST after this action...

"At one time a large number of prisoners were taken - these were handed over to the infantry".

Similarly, the war diary of 6 DLI reports...

"Large numbers of prisoners were taken"

According to Harman, there's only ONE surviving copy of this DLI war diary, in the PRO at Kew at that time...but it DOES address the number of POWs handed over to the DLI in this second occurance...

Or rather it WOULD do, but someone punching the Diary pages for putting into a file has punched out the digit at the start of the number of POWS! But that's JUST the FIRST digit - the diary entry STILL retains...the following TWO ZEROS. So what CAN at least be definitely said that the DLI were in receipt of AT LEAST 100 Totenkopf prisoners of war, and going by the RTR report, probably several hundred taken surrendering after thir convoy was shot up. As Harman then says -

"There is no subsequent trace of these prisoners."

There IS however a confirmation that discipline in the DLI was falling apart by then. Harman goes on to recount -

An offcier of 7RTR on a scouting mission captured a German non-commissioned officer, and carried him back for interrogation. "I continued into Dainville and handed over the prisoner to a captain of the DLI for conveyance to Provost personnel. The troops displayed great animosity towards the prisoner, and I was compelled to draw my revolverand order them off before I could reach their officer." If the Germans had to rely on the Durham's officers for their protection they were out of luck. By the evening of the 21st most of the DLI officers were dead, and every single one of the eight companies present was commanded by a second lieutenant."

Interestingly - while the 7RTR war diary mentions that incident....its Official History DOESN'T

Harman continues, to sum up the event he's reporting -

The distasteful truth is that men of the Durham Light Infantry did murder an unknown number of Germans who had surrendered, and were legitimate prisoners of war. The DLI advanced, took prisoners and were then forced to retreat. They could not take the prisoners back with them. so they killed the SS men rather than set them free to fight again. That, at least, is how some surviving members of the DLI describe the event.

More to follow.