They were the enemy..Were they not? Did they think we cannot bomb Coventry to flatten it. Did they,Just previously Goebbels had called for TOTAL WAR..Fine he bloody got it Sapper
Dresden is always a topic of controversy yet debates on Hiroshima and Nagasaki whilst controversial melt into the background in comparison. Seems odd. Unfortunately overall war is extremely brutal, even with smart bombs war isn't the nice clinical exercise people would like it to be.
We have heard many reasons why Dresden should not have been bombed "at that stage" of the war. Dresden was a beautiful city! What in the hell did bricks and mortar have to do with anything. I care about the children and the aged who were part of the deaths but British and other European cities and towns suffered a similar fate, if not as destructive or the loss of life, so severe. Dresden was not a manufacturer of war material! This claim has been debunked with later evidence showing that over 100 factories were engaged in the making of war material. Why did they do it, Germany was already beaten. (Where have I heard that before) Possibly as early as 1943, Germany was doomed however they still had not surrendered. Germany started the devastation, we equalled, then surpassed it with the loss of 56,000 young lives in bomber command alone. The division over this will never cease however I for one will not accept that "we" did anything wrong by ensuring all areas of Germany that contributed to their war effort in anyway was destroyed. Dear Spidge I respect all of your points, which are well made. You are right - Germany did start the devastation 70 years ago. But the war ended 65 years ago. My point is that although the sacrifice made by the thousands lost in Bomber Command went largely, and so unjustly, unrecognised in the period after the war, the cost of making such a very belated recognition now through a very prominent memorial would be putting our relationship with what is a very friendly country at risk. Just saying "they started it" isn't really a good enough reason to risk damaging relations with our European partners. However hard this might be to swallow, and whatever one's views might be on European integration, it is difficult to see how the proposed memorial could be argued as being in our nation's interests. As an alternative, I would support a campaign medal being struck. This might still be seen as controversial by some, but it would at least represent a personal token of gratitude made by a grateful nation for both survivors and bereaved families, without such a public and permanent display that would doubtless be open (rightly or wrongly) to the accusation of out-dated jingoism.
There is already a medal, its air Europe. It is the same as the France and Germany star...Without the same loss of life
Hi Andy, With respect, my post is based on the original thread " Dresden: barbarism and vengeance"! There is no intended reference to the debate of a BC memorial.
Dear Spidge I respect all of your points, which are well made. You are right - Germany did start the devastation 70 years ago. But the war ended 65 years ago. My point is that although the sacrifice made by the thousands lost in Bomber Command went largely, and so unjustly, unrecognised in the period after the war, the cost of making such a very belated recognition now through a very prominent memorial would be putting our relationship with what is a very friendly country at risk. Just saying "they started it" isn't really a good enough reason to risk damaging relations with our European partners. However hard this might be to swallow, and whatever one's views might be on European integration, it is difficult to see how the proposed memorial could be argued as being in our nation's interests. As an alternative, I would support a campaign medal being struck. This might still be seen as controversial by some, but it would at least represent a personal token of gratitude made by a grateful nation for both survivors and bereaved families, without such a public and permanent display that would doubtless be open (rightly or wrongly) to the accusation of out-dated jingoism. Just to clarify, are you saying we (in the UK) shouldn't have War Memorials because it may damage relations with the country that was defeated? I'm sure any government within the European Union is 'grown up' enough to realise that any memorial would be about remembering the sacrifice made by so many rather than the memorial has been erected as some kind of 'we beat you, ner ner ner ner ner :p '.
Allow me to share some email messages to the site from the originator of this thread after I banned 'em, just so we don't forget how popular this subject is with certain axe-grinders. I don't normally do this, but these are the full texts of three emails that I'll now always have at the back of my mind whenever Dresden (among other subjects) boils to the surface. your mothers were whores, you slimy bastards. fuck you ugly jews. you fucking jooish idiots. Such style, such grace, such spelling. Anyone might think he subscribed to some sort of agenda?.. They're apropos of not much really, other than the ramblings of a nutter - but they do reinforce my overall cynicism about the entire subject, and just who's interests are often served by the continuing dreary 'controversy'.
Reminds me of a dialogue in the 1952 film The World in His Arms, where Anthony Quinn plays the part of a Portuguese seadog. Hotel Clerk: [indicating the Portugee] Er, this gentleman is with your party? Jonathan Clark: This gentleman is no gentleman. He's a sea-going thief who makes his living stealing seals from the Russians. He neither bathes, shaves, nor knows the feel of good clean linen. When the moon is bright, he stays out all night and howls like a dog, then curls up and sleeps on the floor till midday. That right, Portugee? Portugee: He knows me pretty good. So, it's a matter of form and substance. In other words, I'm not offended, which would not preclude me from punching his physiognomy into a different shape Or dying in the attempt!
Ok, I have an issue with those mails. I'm not slimy, on occasion I'm wet if I've been out in the Rain. My Mother was not a whore as far as I know but she did work in the Evenings. However she still swears that it was working in the kitchen at a Restaraunt and I have found no evidence to disbelieve her. I'm not that attractive and I'm not Jewish. In fact I'm not really religious. and as for being an idiot well I'm with Gump on this one "stupid is as stupid does"
This is the ugly side of the World Wide Web, which fortunately our moderation team filter out. Regards Tom
Such language and views are not even worth mentioning let alone consideration. It says ample about the people who write them, none of it good. I would take to task though the statement that the moderators take out all of such language. Perhaps though four letter expletives don't count? I refer to a comment made in a rather heated debate about the holocaust.
Presumably Tom was referring to Neos, who we do indeed tend to filter. If someone's a Nazi, I'm not acting on their choice of expletives... I couldn't give a toss about language. We're supposed to be grown-ups. I certainly don't edit swearing, never will. I've got tons of such messages - I sort of collect 'em (the secret is not to reply, makes 'em rave even more). I keep 'em to myself, and show the mods sometimes. Every now and then it seems worth lifting the veil somewhat, just to remind that there are still many nutters out there, and they have a few favourite subjects. Subjects that their continuing interest in is 'interesting' in itself. Showing it offers no criticism to the varying more level-headed views on here, but does remind of one set of active axe-grinders.
Presumably Tom was referring to Neos, who we do indeed tend to filter. If someone's a Nazi, I'm not acting on their choice of expletives... I couldn't give a toss about language. We're supposed to be grown-ups. I certainly don't edit swearing, never will. I've got tons of such messages - I sort of collect 'em (the secret is not to reply, makes 'em rave even more). I keep 'em to myself, and show the mods sometimes. Every now and then it seems worth lifting the veil somewhat, just to remind that there are still many nutters out there, and they have a few favourite subjects. Subjects that their continuing interest in is 'interesting' in itself. Showing it offers no criticism to the varying more level-headed views on here, but does remind of one set of active axe-grinders. Adam, Thank you for your comments and yes you are indeed correct. I am all for free speech, but comments like you highlighted are fit only for the bin. Regards Tom
T-34. beautiful city of museums and libraries was annihilated, about 100 000 civillians killed - act of barbarism, unnecessary and pointless brutality, revenge taken on those who were innocent. why??? The standard Neos take on the raid on Dresden , if they said anything else it would be a huge surprise. None of us would pretend that Dresden did not take a huge toll in human life and that for those under the bombs it must have been a horrific experience but I do not see these same individuals saying that what happened in Leningrad was terrible or the starvation in Kharkov and occupied Russia was inhuman. Bombing has been described as being "a dirty job carried out by decent young men" ( or something very close to this) but these folks seem to forget that Germany lacked the resources to bomb intensively , she did not lack the will and the development of the V weapons was an expression of this will - it was not something which the Allies forced on Germany. As for the emails/ pms - bin.
I have just watched the first 10 minutes of a German documentary on Dresden. They were interviewing survivors, but it was all in subtitles and I lost interest trying to read and have a conversation with the Mrs at the same time. One thing that struck me was all the survivors said Dresden had no industries. Several members on this thread have spoken to the contrary. I'm being lazy and can't be bothered to do any research. What industries were there in the Dresden area?
vP thanks for sharing the emails Whilst helping out fellow members I have seen enough casualties and stories behind those casualties in the UK(both Forces and Civilian) over the last 10 months to last a lifetime and beyond and I aint finished yet, it has opened my eyes. Dresden means to an end. Even if the military knew it was the end game the folks on the street didn't know. Talk to any British person of a certain age and they will tell you the same. 5+ years of utter hell on the home front and again for the persecuted by Nazi's in Europe and beyond.The war had to end. You climbed into your Lancaster/B17 and you did not know if you were going to return,likewise the Army and Navy. Its War and the Allies were required to be the Victors or the World would have faced unimaginable horror. A while back Ron posted a photo of a very old Jewish woman being pushed by a Nazi brandishing a stick under her chin.Can you imagine the terror,the sheer terror that was going through her mind.Actually you cant because you know it would not happen now,then it was a different story. I say to people take a look at that photo,take a close look. Without the Victory that is what we would have faced. Hesitate at the end game and you get nailed. Yes it was a long time ago but people who lost a loved one still remember,see the link here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/27379-information-required-stanley-william-herring.html Mr Green had tears in his eyes all those years later whilst talking to me. enough from me
CL1 A while back Ron posted a photo of a very old Jewish woman being pushed by a Nazi brandishing a stick under her chin.Can you imagine the terror,the sheer terror that was going through her mind.Actually you cant because you know it would not happen now,then it was a different story. I say to people take a look at that photo,take a close look. Without the Victory that is what we would have faced .
Hi Andy, With respect, my post is based on the original thread " Dresden: barbarism and vengeance"! There is no intended reference to the debate of a BC memorial. Spidge Please accept my sincere apologies. Entirely my fault - I posted a similar point on the thread about the proposed memorial and got my threads tangled. All good wishes Andy
F.Taylor identifies 127 odd industrial units allocated their own three letter code which means they were producing items for the war effort, eg Zeiss had a major interest in Dresden. ( blc/rln). German records do not include the supporting workshops and subsidiary units which were not included in the 127 industrial concerns. Taylor does explain that the Dresden industries employed not only local people but their fair share of slave and forced labour a number of the Jewish people who could remain at their place of work whilst returning to "camp" type accommodation , their homes and belongings became the property of the State and in time they were disposed of by being "sent eastwards for resettlement". This speaks for itself and the essential difference between a reasonable view of Dresden and its fate is that apart from the libraries , the architecture etc being considered a more inclusive view of the city is taken. A means to an end , yes when Germany was defeated but was still being driven to fight to the last youngster OAP and "round" , rounds which were still claiming lives - 100,000 Russians died to take Berlin , Hitler would not have had it any other way and nor would Stalin - who cared as little for his soldiers lives as Hitler did for his.
Just to clarify, are you saying we (in the UK) shouldn't have War Memorials because it may damage relations with the country that was defeated? I'm sure any government within the European Union is 'grown up' enough to realise that any memorial would be about remembering the sacrifice made by so many rather than the memorial has been erected as some kind of 'we beat you, ner ner ner ner ner :p '. Dear Drew5233 Just to clarify... Please understand I am not advocating doing anything with our existing war memorials, perish the thought. I can't see German or Italian people having a problem with those. But I am suggesting that to build a new memorial now, so large and prominent in our capital city, may be inappropriate, given how far peaceful international co-operation (at least in western Europe) has taken us since WW2. Even the architecture of the proposed structure - neo-classical, i.e. of another time - says more about state power than about people. Re: Sapper's post: Dad did get a France and Germany Star and, presumably like thousands of others, a Defence Medal, a War Medal and a 1939-45 Star. But no campaign medal as I believe other RAF Commands received? Dad told me as a kid that it was because BC's (and Harris's) contribution was discredited immediately after the war and that the controversy over the Dresden raid probably had a lot to do with it. In fact Dad didn't really feel comfortable talking about his war service until the late 1980s when he was finally persuaded to join the Bomber Command Association and his local RAFA.
