Declassified MI5 file shows Nazi spy almost changed course of war

Discussion in 'Top Secret' started by geoff501, Mar 3, 2009.

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  1. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Declassified MI5 file shows Nazi spy almost changed course of war.

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    Declassified MI5 file shows Nazi spy almost changed course of war - Times Online
     
  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Geoff,

    Thanks for that post. A real piece of WW2 Espionage news and I wonder what else will emerge as the secrecy law times expire.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  3. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Thanks for that post, nice one.
     
  4. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    Interesting. Thanks Geoff.
     
  5. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I was reading about Christiaan Lindermans 'Traitor of Arnhem' code name:King Kong and Karl Heinz Kramer the other day. The Lindermans wasn't believed and Kramer's info didn't get through to Model in time to make any differance thankfully- Stories like this do make you wonder what if.

    Geoff funny you put Bletchley up, the book I'm reading suggests they new about the SS Panzer Div's in Arnhem thanks to Ultra but didn't filter the info down to key commanders in Market Garden for fear of compromising Enigma.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  7. cash_13

    cash_13 Senior Member

    The question has to be asked why was he not shot as a spy rather than be detained for the rest of the war?
     
  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    He must have been of use to the intelligence service and possibly XX club, just a thought.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The book suggests it was something to do with his connection to the Dutch Royalty.
     
  10. M6SOE

    M6SOE Junior Member

    The question has to be asked why was he not shot as a spy rather than be detained for the rest of the war?

    He was a Foreign national of a neutral country at the time, caught on the high seas, to shoot him would have been murder. Portugal although neutral was essential to help with war in the Atlantic against the U Boats, this happened when Allied aircraft where able to use the Azores.
     
    Drew5233 and Smudger Jnr like this.
  11. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    He was a Foreign national of a neutral country at the time, caught on the high seas, to shoot him would have been murder. Portugal although neutral was essential to help with war in the Atlantic against the U Boats, this happened when Allied aircraft where able to use the Azores.

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    Good answer.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hello and welcome-We have a growing SOE section on here-Hopefully you'll be able to contribute to it.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  13. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    He was a Foreign national of a neutral country at the time, caught on the high seas, to shoot him would have been murder. Portugal although neutral was essential to help with war in the Atlantic against the U Boats, this happened when Allied aircraft where able to use the Azores.


    I would agree,he was merely held in custody to safeguard the interests of HM Government in circumstances which did not circumvent international law.Presumably,if the Portugeuse had made representations about him,then the British authorities would have had to respond to Portugal's request,satisfactorily.

    Portugal is an old ally of Great Britain.As far as I know,we have never been at war with each other.Had the Portugeese crossed our past interests and challenged our freedom on the high seas,then things might have been different.

    The leasing of the Azores bases formed the southernly route to Britain for transatlantic traffic as opposed to the Newfoundland,Iceland,Prestwich northern run.The mere fact that the Allies were in virtual control of the Azores ensured that the islands would not fall into German hands.The same policy was applied to Iceland when Denmark was overrun by the Germans.I believe that Hitler,at one time had a plan to occupy the Azores and the Allied presence their was to prevent this development.

    The other point of note is that BAOC operated a transatlantic flying boat service to the US from Lisbon before the new military routes were established.However,it has to be said that Lisbon was a city of spies from both sides who were largely left alone by the Portugeese authorities.
     
  14. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Looking at the letter to The Times.In addition to not being able to read SD signal traffic as mentioned by the letter writer, who participated in the work,the Gestapo signal traffic was also not read.This being the reason why it could some time to account for the SOE lost souls,a task that Vera Atkins devoted so much time to shed light on their fate, immediately after the war's end

    The other point about the German wireless traffic is that Bormann had his own wireless system for regular communication with his Gauleiters and this code was not broken.Probably a question of priorities for the Bletchley Park organisation but nevertheless would have added valuable intelligence regarding the German home front.
     
  15. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Geoff funny you put Bletchley up, the book I'm reading suggests they new about the SS Panzer Div's in Arnhem thanks to Ultra but didn't filter the info down to key commanders in Market Garden for fear of compromising Enigma


    Andy - what's the book? IIRC M.R.D. Foot amongst others puts it down to fears that the main source of the HUMINT regarding Model and Bittrich at Arnhem was possibly still contaminated by Giskes' Englandspiel; by September 1944 the SOE was still only rebuilding its compromised networks in Holland, and had throughout the war refused to cooperate with two smaller networks that reported directly to the Dutch government-in -exile. Thus Allied commanders on the ground were ordered to politely (or sot so politely) ignore any information volunteered by Dutch "resisters" during Market Garden.

    I was reading about Christiaan Lindermans 'Traitor of Arnhem' code name:King Kong and Karl Heinz Kramer the other day. The Lindermans wasn't believed and Kramer's info didn't get through to Model in time to make any differance thankfully- Stories like this do make you wonder what if.



    Is this the same story that Len Mosley wrote about in the mid-1970s and was laughed out of court about?
     

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