Good spot! It seems that 2 Corps sign had some variations - eg this Austin K3 at Malo Terminus. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43224&stc=1&d=1294403099 Andrew I've never seen the fish swimming uphill before. Wasn't the sign originally introduced with just the wavy brook lines and the fish added later for clarity ? That might explain local variations.
JCB asked about the make and model of the thoroughly shot-up staff car in the colour image and after trawling the interweb for a while I found this pic of a 1939 Ford Mercury. If you paint over all the chrome it is vaguely similar (horizontal grill, side doors opposing, bonnet trim, bumper seems the same). I wonder if they made right-hand drive versions for the British market?
JCB asked about the make and model of the thoroughly shot-up staff car in the colour image and after trawling the interweb for a while I found this pic of a 1939 Ford Mercury. If you paint over all the chrome it is vaguely similar (horizontal grill, side doors opposing, bonnet trim, bumper seems the same). I wonder if they made right-hand drive versions for the British market? This looks like a very good match - even down to the double ribbing on the bumper. What makes you think the car in the colour pic is not left hand drive as well? Andrew
Not really my thing but isn't it a V8 91A ? They were Dagenham-built and RHD. This is an IWM photo of a Ford V8 with the BEF :- Ford V8 BEF
Yes indeed, rather missed the point there, didn't I ? I'm surprised just how incomplete the on-line information on pre-war European Fords is.
Mercury looks a good match,bought/requisitioned locally ? These Dagenham Fords are a bit of an anomally nothing like the English V8 Ford Pilots , I snapped the WOC1 below in Dunkirk 70 years later. When I first saw the BEF American style station wagons and WOC1's I thought they were very early CMP stuff ,but the MLU forum put me right on that one! The only CMP stuff coming ashore in France after Dunkirk with BEF2 very briefly before being destroyed . I wonder if Dagenham just took the American designs as a matter of expediency for the war or were they built up from kits ?
It may be difficult to find an answer - like Rich I could find almost nothing on the web about pre-war Fords in the UK. If Dagenham was manufacturing Fords under licence pre-war, I guess they would have been diverted to more vital munitions, tanks or aeroplanes or something along those lines. The only interesting thing I discovered was a complete 1939 Ford Mercury for sale on Australian ebay, in fairly poor condition and priced at 7,000 Australian dollars. It seems to have been sold now, I guess as a restoration project for someone.
Hi everybody My first post now my account has finally been activated. Fascinating thread, as is the BEF 'Army' thread elsewhere. I do have some comments - hopefully helpful. Some time ago, someone mentioned that the 4 Inf Div and 51 Highland Div signs on the Aleran decal sheet UK-1 were wrong. One problem with formation signs is that published lists do not always make it clear that the signs worn on clothing were not always the same as those used on vehicles (for instance, the 3 Inf Div sign is always triangular on clothing, but usually on a round red background on vehicles). Agreed that the 4 Div sign may have the wrong quadrant displaced (always assuming that the squaddy who painted it knew which was right), but rotating the decal by 90 degrees will soon fix that. And I am not sure what is wrong with the 51 Div sign. I know Airfix managed to print it on a white background many years ago, but this looks all right to me. A comment on the 8cwt in post #95. 18 is assumed to refer to 7 RWK. Why? 36 Bde consisted of 5 Buffs (3rd of Foot) and 6 and 7 RWK (50th and 97th of Foot). By seniority, 5 Buffs should be 17, 6 RWK 18 and 7 RWK 19. Again, the problem arises of how well the seniority rules were followed, especially when, as happened, units were moved from one brigade to another. Incidentally, 6 RWK were scattered at Doullens the day after 7 RWK were destroyed at Albert. Chris
Hello Chris, welcome to the forum. It's always good to have new analytical input. I hope that these BEF threads in particular remain a discussion forum and I'm certainly guilty of throwing things onto it without thorough research. The problem with the 51st Div sign is that a number of sources (there I go again) mention that the 'HD' symbol was not used by the 51st as part of the BEF, they used instead a stag's head. It is therefore more than a case of a colour difference. Photographic evidence clearly shows that the 4th Division sign changed although I've never seen mention of why. The decal sheet unfortunately seems to have used later (ie 1944) information as a basis. I'm not a modeller and individuals can of course adapt as they see fit but there is a risk that without discussions such as these, incorrect information might go unnoticed. I used Bellis's 'Divisons of the British Army' as a basis for my identification of the AoS marking in #195. You're absolutely right when you say that the swapping of battalions between brigades makes the whole order of precedence thing difficult, particularly with the BEF where it was done on a large scale. I have never found a source which details whether all battalions repainted their AoS markings if they were made more senior or more junior by changes elsewhere. 5th Buffs were briefly with 37th Infantry Brigade in October 1939, before swapping with 2/6th East Surrey in 36th Brigade. The question is whether they took over the East Surrey's vacant AoS marking within the Brigade or whether the two battalions of West Kents each moved down a step, as would seem logical if the AoS markings strictly indicated seniority. The point that you make is a good one and I don't know where the definitive answer would be found, perhaps in 12th Division's diaries for October 1939 ? During October 1939, 6th RWK would have displayed '17' and 7th RWK '18'. Did they repaint to '18' and '19' when 5th Buffs came on the scene ? Rich
Rich, I followed your link to this thread and seeing the 51st division stag-head discussed thought to add this eBay photo which would be 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders.
