420 Sqn RCAF & Wellington LN431

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Owen, Apr 16, 2006.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I've been going over my info on cousin Bill's crew of Wellington LN431.
    The whole crew was lost on a raid on Lamezio night of 14th/15th August 1943. 26 wellingtons dropped 54 tons of bombs.
    The crew were.

    Sgt JM Parr(pilot)
    Sgt Dadge (bomb aimer)
    Sgt Nettle
    Sgt Norgrove
    Sgt Boyd.

    They are all on the Malta Memorial to the Missing.I've looked them all up on the CWGC site.
    I also have a copy of Bill's service record he was with 420 Sqn from 4/7/43. Not long.
    (All our family's war dead in both wars are all Missing.)

    Can anyone put any faces to these names?
    Any extra info on the crew or LN431 would be good.
    Found some good photos of 420 sqn in N. Africa here.
    http://parkerdw.sasktelwebsite.net/420webpage/Africa/gallery.htm

    Look forward to what can be found , Thanks.
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Here are the crew from the CWGC.

    Name: PARR, JOHN MARTLAND
    Initials: J M
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1431080
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL


    Name: DADGE, WILLIAM GEORGE HENRY
    Initials: W G H
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Age: 22
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1168383
    Additional information: Son of George and Elsie Dadge; husband of Gladys
    Dadge, of Chelston, Torquay, Devon.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

    Name: NETTLE, DESMOND JOHN
    Initials: D J
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Age: 21
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1320693
    Additional information: Son of William John and Elsie Amy Nettle, of Weston-super-Mare,
    Somerset.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

    Name: NORGROVE, ERIC STANLEY RAYMOND
    Initials: E S R
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn.
    Age: 22
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1312417
    Additional information: Son of Hubert James Norgrove and Winifred Hester
    Norgrove, of Headington, Oxford.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

    Name: BOYD, DANIEL DAVID
    Initials: D D
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 652467
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL


    One thing, didn't the Wellington have a crew of 6 ?
     
  3. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Here are the crew from the CWGC.

    Name: PARR, JOHN MARTLAND
    Initials: J M
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1431080
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL


    Name: DADGE, WILLIAM GEORGE HENRY
    Initials: W G H
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Age: 22
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1168383
    Additional information: Son of George and Elsie Dadge; husband of Gladys
    Dadge, of Chelston, Torquay, Devon.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

    Name: NETTLE, DESMOND JOHN
    Initials: D J
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Age: 21
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1320693
    Additional information: Son of William John and Elsie Amy Nettle, of Weston-super-Mare,
    Somerset.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

    Name: NORGROVE, ERIC STANLEY RAYMOND
    Initials: E S R
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 420 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn.
    Age: 22
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 1312417
    Additional information: Son of Hubert James Norgrove and Winifred Hester
    Norgrove, of Headington, Oxford.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

    Name: BOYD, DANIEL DAVID
    Initials: D D
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant
    Regiment: Royal Air Force
    Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
    Date of Death: 15/08/1943
    Service No: 652467
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8, Column 1.
    Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL


    One thing, didn't the Wellington have a crew of 6 ?

    The normal crew of a Bomber Command Wellington on operations would be 5.

    Pilot

    Observer. Undertaking navigational and bomber aiming duties.

    Two Air Wireless Operators/Air Gunners

    One Air Gunner.

    These last three crew man would share front turret and rear turret duties with the other undertaking the Wireless Operator duties as his prime function

    Occasionally a second pilot, an advanced pilot under training flew as the 6th men for the purpose of experiencing bomber operations prior to taking over his own crew. Sometimes referred to as the "Second Dicky" ,the practice could result in the loss of two pilots,one probably experienced and the "Second Dicky" with hardly an operation to his name and who would be otherwise destined as part of the "successor" structure.However it was the only method of giving raw pilots experience of air operations prior to them taking on the greater responsibility of skippering their own aircraft.

    When the four engined heavies came into service in early 1942,Bomber Command,the new flight crew designation,Flight Engineer was introduced which eliminated the need for a second pilot,this crewman as well as handling the engine performance /fuel tank selection was also trained to act as second pilotto takeover in an emergency.Enhanced training at the OTUs,OCUs and the provision of special Lancaster Finishing Schools resulted in a continual stream of aircrew to mann new Lancaster Squadrons as large numbers of Lancaster aircraft rolled off the production line.

    Experienced pilots at Group Captain level were occasionally lost when operating as second pilots,quite a number were lost in four engined heavies on operations which their crewing could be challenged.It did lead to the unnecessary loss of some Station Commanders.
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Sorry Harry, just realised I never said Thank You for explaining that.
    Better late than never.Thank You.
     
  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Been sent these pictures of the Malta Memorial today.
    In the Scout HQ & shop in Swindon I saw Bill Dadge is on the War Memorial there to former Scouts killed in WW2.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. David Layne

    David Layne Well-Known Member

    I'm confused with this raid. "Bomber Command War Diaries" does not list it as such.
     
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    They not in Bomber Command, at that time, they were operating in the Med.
     
  8. David Layne

    David Layne Well-Known Member

    Thanks for clarifying that Owen.
     
  9. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    The normal crew of a Bomber Command Wellington on operations would be 5.
    Pilot
    Observer. Undertaking navigational and bomber aiming duties.
    Two Air Wireless Operators/Air Gunners
    One Air Gunner.


    Harry is correct about Wellington crews in the early part of the war, and about the introduction of Flight Engineers on four-engined types.

    But in mid-1942 the role of Observer was split into Navigator and Bomb-Aimer, as the workload was becoming too heavy for one man. The Wireless Op was no longer an Air Gunner as well - with increasing radio beam guidance such as Gee the W/Op was fully occupied working as a team with the Navigator and B/Aimer. The B/Aimer also operated the front turret, which was very little used in practice on night ops, and in any case there wasn't much room for two men - if a front gunner was present he was virtually sitting on the prone Bomb Aimer. (An exception was the dams raid where front gunners were carried to try to eliminate the AA and searchlights).

    Therefore the other three men on this Wellington in 1943 would have been Navigator, W/Op and Rear Gunner.

    Adrian
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Thanks Adrian.
    I've stood in front of the Wellington at Brooklands Museum and tried to image Bill and his crew in one. It seemed so vunerable.
     
  11. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    Owen
    I've seen the Brooklands Wellington as well. Beautiful, especially given that is was at the bottom of Loch Ness for 50 years.
    I was discussing it with a very helpful museum guide, named Maurice Curteis. He hinted that he had flown in WW2, and eventually I plucked up courage to ask him what he had flown. I was astounded when he told me he had flown Hampdens - they were around at the beginning of the war, so he must have been at least 85! Hampdens get a knocking in many history books, but he said he liked them - though he admitted they were more comfortable for the pilot and observer than the two WOP/AGs.

    Adrian
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I was discussing it with a very helpful museum guide
    They all are at Brooklands, lovely place, nice feel. (My father spent some time there launching chickens at canopies from a specially designed gun testing for birdstrike resistance o_O ) Wonder if we talked to the same chap? If I remember right the bloke we met had done ove 95 missions over Germany? (can that be right?) Must be one of the luckiest statistical survivors of WW2.
     
  13. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    They all are at Brooklands, lovely place, nice feel. (My father spent some time there launching chickens at canopies from a specially designed gun testing for birdstrike resistance o_O ) Wonder if we talked to the same chap? If I remember right the bloke we met had done ove 95 missions over Germany? (can that be right?) Must be one of the luckiest statistical survivors of WW2.

    I didn't ask how many missions Mr Curteis had done. He could have been the same man: but I wondered why he only mentioned that he had flown Hampdens and not later types. Could he have been shot down and become a POW I wonder? I wish I had asked more, but I didn't want to seem intrusive by asking too many personal questions.

    The Museum is much more informal than the better known ones. I sat in the cockpit of a Hunter and the Captain's seat of the VC10 (which I had seen being flown into Brooklands back in '87 while working in Byfleet and was reunited with this year!). And of course there is the mock-up of a Wellington fuselage that you can walk through, close to the real one.

    Adrian
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Bill Dadge's service record .

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Some pages from The RCAF Overseas: The First Four Years for August 1943.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Details of raid on Lamezio top of page.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Can't offer much to this thread, Owen's done it all.

    Movements of No.420 Squadron during WW2.

    19 December 1941. Formed at Waddington
    January 1942. Equipped with the Hampden.
    7 August 1942. To Skipton-on-Swale.
    August 1942. Re-equipped with the Wellington III.
    16 October 1942. to Middleton St.George.
    February 1943. Re-equipped with the Wellington X
    16 May 1943. en route to North Africa.
    4 June 1943. To Telergma.
    19 June 1943. To Zina.
    29 September 1943. To Hani East.
    17 October 1943. en rout UK.
    6 November 1943. To Dalton.
    12 December 1943. To Tholthorpe.
    December 1943. Re-equipped with the Halifax III.
    April 1945. Re-equipped with the Lancaster X.
    12 June 1945. en rout Canada.
    12 June 1945. To Debert Nova Scotia.
    5 September 1945. Disbanded.


    RAF Squadrons - C G. Jefford.
     
  18. dboyd

    dboyd Junior Member

    Hello

    I have just come across your posting and the thread. The tail gunner in this crew, Daniel David Boyd was my father's half-brother.

    He was actually called David John Boyd (known in the family as "Davey") but he had been a peace-time soldier in the late 1930's and had had a few scrapes with authority, so that when war came he enlisted in the RAF and altered his name slightly, to make a clean break from his earlier service record!

    He was born in Belfast - I do not know his date of birth or what age he was when killed but he must have been in his mid-30's. We have never chased down his service record. His father too was David John Boyd and had been a Royal Navy stoker before and during WW1, dying in 1939.

    I don't know when or where Davey enlisted in the RAF or how he ended up in a Canadian bomber squadron. He had been working in Egypt and the eastern mediterranean before the war so we have sometimes wondered if he enlisted in Egypt. He was by all accounts a pretty colourful character!

    He was married with (I think) a daughter and when he was killed his wife had all his effects, so I don't think either my aunt or my father has any photos from his time in 420 squadron. However I will ask my aunt if she has any letters and if so, if they mention any other crew members.

    We knew he was killed on a raid "over Salerno" so it was interesting to learn specifically which raid his Wellington was lost in, and to see the lists of all the raids and the description of the bombing campaign generally. I imagine the casualty rate during 420's tour in N. Africa was fairly high, presumably because a lot of the targets were beyond the range of figher cover

    My aunt, Davey's half-sister, visited the Malta memorial several years ago, when I had found form the CWGC site that he was commemorated there. My father and I plan to do the same at some point.

    Best wishes
     
  19. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Hello dboyd

    Welcome to the forum.
    Many thanks for adding a bit more info, Davey was certainly a colourful character. Look forward to more posts.

    Regards
    Peter
     
  20. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    dboyd,

    Welcome to the forum.
    It is always nice to get that personal piece of information, it adds icing on the cake so to speak, for the thread.

    Regards

    Tom
     

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