I've been trying to identify DEMS gunner casualties with Allied merchant ship losses. I know in the absence of most war dairies it's a thankless task, but wonder if anybody can confirm these two losses. Wednesday 5th June 1940 GREGORY, Wilfred, Private, Manchester Regt, 3531701, killed LANGRIDGE, Frederick, Lance Corporal, Manchester Regt, 3531708, killed Considering they were both killed on the same date from the same unit, I've assumed that they were lost on the same vessel. If that assumption is correct I've only got two UK shipping losses on the 5th June; Capable (216t)- Mined off Horsehand Fort, Spithead Stancor (798t)- Sunk by U37 in the Atlantic. As far as I can see, all onboard Stancor survived the sinking of, so I'm inclined to think they were lost with Capable (which had five crew killed). Any ideas whether I'm correct? Regards, Steve
Yes they were DEMS gunners. As far as I can see the British Army DEMS gunners didn't settle down under the Royal Artillery until some time in 1941. For example I've got HANDISIDES, Stanley A, Private, 4757902, York and Lancaster Regt- Lost after sinking of S.S. Agnete Maersk on 24th March 1941. and CHALMERS, Duncan W, Fusilier, 3129365, Royal Scots Fusiliers- Lost after sinking of M/V Ahamo on 8th April 1941 Regards Steve
Did you check CWGC CWGC shows both as DEMS gunners and states MV Capable as their vessel LANCE CORPORAL FREDERICK LANGRIDGE Service Number: 3531708 Regiment & Unit/Ship Manchester Regiment D.E.M.S. Personnel. M.V. Capable. 2/9th Bn. Date of Death Died 05 June 1940 Age 23 years old Buried or commemorated at PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL Panel 44, Column 2. United Kingdom PRIVATE WILFRED GREGORY Service Number: 3531701 Regiment & Unit/Ship Manchester Regiment D.E.M.S. Personnel. M.V. Capable. 2/9th Bn. Date of Death Died 05 June 1940 Age 19 years old Buried or commemorated at PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL Panel 98. United Kingdom Country of ServiceUnited Kingdom Additional InfoSon of Joseph Gregory, and of Doris Gregory, of Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire.
Thanks, for that. Yeah I got their names off CWGC website when I did a search for DEMS gunners, but I only got as Manchester Regt, on Plymouth Memorial, with no battalion or ship details. I guess they must have been updated since then. On a similar subject any ideas about 7th Btn, Seaforth Highlanders; killed on 20th September 1940. SCOTT, George A L R, Private, Army, 3245598, killed STEPHENS, Robert A H, Lance Corporal, Army, 2821602, killed Just checked CWGC and it lists no ship for them. Possible ship losses are Commissaire Ramel, City of Simla, Baron Blythswood or Empire Adventure.
UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945 Name: George Scott Given Initials: G A L R Rank: Private Death Date: 20 Sep 1940 Number: 3245598 Birth Place: Hamilton Residence: Hamilton Regiment at Enlistment: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) Branch at Enlistment: Infantry Theatre of War: At sea Regiment at Death: Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs, Duke of Albany's) Branch at Death: Infantry UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945 Name: Robert Stephens Given Initials: R A H Rank: Lance Corporal Death Date: 20 Sep 1940 Number: 2821602 Birth Place: Canada Residence: Inverness Regiment at Enlistment: Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs, Duke of Albany's) Branch at Enlistment: Infantry Theatre of War: At sea Regiment at Death: Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs, Duke of Albany's) Branch at Death: Infantry TD Private George Archibald Lyon Ross Scott... Service No: 3245598 Age: 19 Regiment/Service: Seaforth Highlanders, D.E.M.S. Personnel, 7th Bn. Son of William and Alexina Scott, of Hamilton, Lanarkshire. Ancestry shows that there is an obituary for him which I cant access U.S., Newspapers.com Obituary Index, 1800s-current George Lyon Scott His names may help further research Name: Robert Alexander Hendry Stephens Gender: Male Age: 19 Birth Date: abt 1921 Death Date: 20 Sep 1940 Lance Corporal Robert Alexander Hendry Stephens... Service No: 2821602 Age: 19 Regiment/Service: Seaforth Highlanders, 7th Bn. Defensive Equiped Merchant Ships Personnel. Son of Arthur Henry Stephens, and of Isabella Stephens, of Hampstead, London.
What a coincidence as I was looking through my DEMS database today. DEMS army gunners are quite difficult to research. My money is on them being among the 4 DEMS gunners lost from the Dutch TRITO - two naval gunners are known but the other two are not. But...I try not to do guesswork - you need a crew list or the maritime card from the MOD. Regards Hugh
SS Trito https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?10161 The names of 4 British gunners are unknown TD Hugh - would this hold anything? - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8660302
No TD - that is just the ship's movement card there are no personnel on there - only only one way to go - crew list or the maritime card from the MOD. By the way two RN gunners are known - O'CONNELL, William, Act/Able Seaman, D/JX 198432, (President III, O/P), MPK O'NEILL, James, Act/Able Seaman, D/JX 198441, (President III, O/P), MPK . Regards Hugh
Casualty Details | CWGC PRIVATE GEORGE ARCHIBALD LYON ROSS SCOTT Service Number: 3245598 Regiment & Unit/Ship Seaforth Highlanders D.E.M.S. Personnel. 7th Bn. Date of Death Died 20 September 1940 Age 19 years old Buried or commemorated at PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL Panel 44, Column 2. United Kingdom Country of Service United Kingdom His CWGC record states he was DEMS Casualty Details | CWGC LANCE CORPORAL ROBERT ALEXANDER HENDRY STEPHENS Service Number: 2821602 Regiment & Unit/Ship Seaforth Highlanders 7th Bn. Defensive Equiped Merchant Ships Personnel. Date of Death Died 20 September 1940 Age 19 years old William O'Connell UK, British Army and Navy Birth, Marriage and Death Records, 1730-1960 Name: William O'Connell Event: Death Birth Date: 29 Sep 1920 Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancs Death Date: 20 Sep 1940 Death Age: 19 Record above states SS Trito Name: James O'Neill Event: Death Birth Date: 20 Sep 1921 Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancs Death Date: 20 Sep 1940 Death Age: 19 Record states Trito TD
Hi Hugh, Thanks yeah I had the two RN gunners on Trito. Lloyd's losses says 21 crew killed and 3 survived after that sinking, but I'd not been able to confirm if the gunners were included in the 21 lost. With only seventeen crew listed by wrecksite.eu, I guess that would give a strong indication that two Army gunners could have been lost with Trito. Looking again at my loss lists; Commissaire Ramel- 3 OR crew killed (listed by CWGC, Lloyds says 3 crew lost) Empire Adventure- 5 Officers and 16 OR crew killed (listed by CWGC, Lloyds says 21 crew lost) New Sevilla- 1 Officer and 1 OR crew killed (listed by CWGC and Lloyds says 2 crew lost) City of Simla- Possibly 2 OR crew killed (CWGC lists one on 17th and one on 21st, Lloyds says 1 crew and 2 passengers lost, but CAB66/12 says five killed) So that would remove the first three ships as options and probably cancel out the fourth, leaving only Trito. Regards Steve
DEMS gunners were mainly provided by the Royal Navy and the Maritime Regiment of the Royal Artillery but there were some other army regiments that did this duty and about 50 or so were killed aboard ships. Regards Hugh
Hi Hugh, From CWGC I had identified; Boy Wahib Kahn [Listed on 21/9/40] Tindal Abdul Rahman [Listed on 17/9/40] Do you know who the third crew member was? Regards, Steve
Sorry for the late reply Steve - I had to re-check my sources. The correct answer is the two crew you have already identified. Problem arose with Tindal Abul Rahman being listed twice. The first time in the Sept 1940 list with a spelling mistake in surname and then being listed again in the October list along with Wahib Kahn. So for your records 2 x crew and 2 x passengers lost = 4. Sorry for the confusion. Regards Hugh
Gents, Any info on the following? Wednesday 11th September 1940 HAYSTEAD, Reginald G, Private, 6th Btn Royal Norfolk Regt, 5772254, killed I have an unidentified gunner lost onboard Norwegian ship Eli on the 10th, so he might be this man. Regards, Steve