Unknown Soldier (Airborne) CWGC/8/2/8/4/2/8

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Mr Jinks, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Within the CWGC archives there are the personal effects of an unknown soldier. Two gold signet rings inscribed R.W. (one inscribed Joan 1944), one broken fountain pen, one broken propelling pencil and one A.A.C. Cap badge which were found with the remains of an unknown British soldier from the Second World War. Casualty was reburied at Jonkerbos War Cemetery, Plot 19, Row J, Grave 3 on 06/11/1964
    (Cas ID 75408966).
    There was according to the items description also a whistle marked `WD` which appears to be now missing.
    unknown.jpg
    Copyright CWGC

    Search Results


    As this dates from 1964 I wonder if anyone could suggest possibilities (I know thats all they would be ) given the knowledge on this site?

    Kyle
     
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  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Just doing a quick search for someone with initial 'R' and surname 'W?' who married and his wife had a first name 'Joan' between 1940 and 1944 throws up 175 results - assuming they married and that marriage took place within England & Wales

    I guess that need would need checking against something like the Paradata records or some other database for AAC missing/presumed dead/KIA

    TD

    The results decrease to 34 if you only search for the year 1944
     
  3. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    Possibly a casualty of Market Garden. If, and it's a big if, the "RW" on the ring is his initials, then one possibility could be 847224 S/Sgt Roy Oliver Woods, AAC, 25th Sept 44, no known grave, commemorated on Groesbeek Memorial.
     
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  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  5. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    From the CWGC site it looks like that has been suggested but not sufficiently proven - I do think a GLider Pilot is more likely to have an AAC badge than a Parahute Regiment lad


    Untitled.jpg
     
  6. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Run a couple of lists, one from FMP and one from Ancestry, these show 1944 marriages for a R W who married a Joan. Note that these only include those whose first name starts with R and excludes those whose second name is R.
    In theory the lists should match, they don't completely.
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Good morning TD (and all!)

    An observation re the rings.

    Neither of them look like wedding rings of the time.

    A (any?) family tree of the late Staff Serjeant Roy Oliver Woods may need investigation ("JW" a relative maybe?)

    A look at the inside of both rings too (hallmarks?) may help, possibly.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
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  8. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    I hoped it would stimulate a little interest and it appears I wasnt wrong :) Thanks for the wonderful input .
    After I posted I realised that this `unknown` also features on Philip Reinders thread regarding those missing in the Netherlands so I have dropped him a Pm just incase he can offer any suggestions .
    Thanks again everyone for indulging me .

    Kyle
     
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  9. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    The CWGC website archive seems to have interesting bits like this included (and the bit noting cases accepted/rejected etc) but it seems a horribly disorganised and user unfriendly website (or maybe its just me), not really something you can browse - its one thing if its an archive for themselves and they know how to work it, but if they are trying to give interested outsiders an insight into their history and workings it misses the mark
     
  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Thats the problem - cant find one at the moment

    A possible birth
    England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2007
    Name: Roy O Woods
    Registration Date: Apr 1920
    [May 1920]
    [Jun 1920]
    Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
    Registration District: Winchester
    Inferred County: Hampshire
    Mother's Maiden Name: King
    Volume Number: 2c
    Page Number: 303

    Again no associated family tree

    TD

    Checking births - he seems to be the only Woods born to mother with maiden name King between 1910 and 1930 in Hampshire
     
  11. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    Roy Oliver Woods entry at Paradata

    Roy Oliver Woods was the son of Joseph and Dorothy Woods, of Southampton. He enlisted in the Royal Artillery and volunteered for airborne forces. Staff/Sergeant Woods successfully completed Glider Pilot training and was posted to B Squadron, 3 Flight, Chalk Number 868, The Glider Pilot Regiment, and took part in Operation Market Garden (Arnhem).
    S/Sgt Woods was killed in action, aged 24, during an enemy tank attack which also cost the lives of Sgt Higham and S/Sgt Picton on 25 September 1944.
    Roy O Woods | ParaData
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  12. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    This is one heck of a puzzler.

    Both Sgt Higham and Staff Sgt Picton lie in Oosterbeek which would (may?) make it more likely that Staff Sgt Roy Woods, if interred as an unknown, would most likely be there too (rather than an unknown in Jonkerbosch, some miles distant)

    A real puzzler.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
    Name: Joseph E Woods
    Registration Date: Oct 1919
    [Nov 1919]
    [Dec 1919]
    Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
    Registration District: Southampton
    Inferred County: Hampshire
    Spouse: Dorothy King
    Volume Number: 2c
    Page Number: 60

    King was the maiden name for Roy O Woods birth above so that would fit well

    Still no family trees yet

    TD
     
  14. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Some info on the GPs mentioned so far from book the "Glider Pilots at Arnhem". Sgt Saunders, co-pilot to S/Sgt Woods, was taken POW.

    Woods, R.O. S/Sgt. 847224, B/3, KIA, CN-868
    Saunders, L.P. Sgt. 4804127, B/3, POW 12A, CN-868

    Picton, R.K. S/Sgt. 894207, B/3, KIA, CN-873
    Higham, R.B. Sgt. 3714069, B/3, KIA, CN-872


    All these men flew on the same lift out RAF Manston

    27X Albemarle/Horsa - RAF 296/297 Sqns RAF - 3 & 4 Flt, 'B' Sqn GPR - DZ/LZ 'X' - CNs 859-885 - elms 2 Battery 1 AL Lt Regt (RA) (8 x guns)

    No mention of a source but according to the Air Crew Remembered database S/Sgt Roy Oliver Woods was,

    "Originally reported missing 25 September 1944. Glider reported crashed on landing. Remains were found in 1964 in Nijmegan, some 300 yards north-west of the Old Church, Oosterbeek. There was a gold signet ring bearing the initials RW and an AAC cap badge, which suggests they could be the remains of SSgt Roy Woods"

    Going by the GCR the field graves for Sgt Higham and S/Sgt Picton were at TSh 6 N.W MR 693774. That location is approximately 325 metres west and a bit north of the Old Church. Actually six of the eight men listed on that page were also with B Squadron, GPR.

    doc4184505.JPG 693774-Grave Site.jpg

    It seems the unidentified remains with items were found approximately in same area. They must need something a bit more conclusive to prove that is where S/Sgt Roy Woods was initially buried?

    Regards ...

    Edit: Removed the Coordinates Translator finding and replaced with grid box location which agrees with AB64s suggestion that the mass grave was near the corner of Benendendorpsweg and Kneppelhoutweg. There is also an entrance into Gielenbeek Park at the corner today.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  15. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    And even more of a puzzler!

    The "Aircrew Remembered" passage is a mystery in itself and poses even more questions.

    What circumstances would have a chap(Staff Sgt Woods') KIA in Oosterbeek by all counts, remains surfacing in Nijmegen in '64?

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
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  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Injured, captured, hospitalised, died near a hospital or medical facility not near the others ?

    TD
     
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  17. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    I'm missing something here.

    Perhaps the personal effects ( two rings etc) surfaced in Nijmegen in '64 (from the then NV Museum or a private citizen?) and were then passed to CWGC maybe.

    It would be more likely for effects to migrate (and without being macabre and with all due reverence) than remains.

    Perhaps the "finding of" circumstances made the CWGC decision the only one they could make.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
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  18. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Jim,

    I wondered too about the "Nijmegan" reference as it makes no sense and throws that claim into doubt. Perhaps just a goof up? A more reliable source is needed for the location where remains were found. You have to wonder how many other men were buried at 693774.

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
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  19. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    According to the CWGC the belongings were found with the body .just for clarification.

    Kyle
     
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  20. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Hello Kyle, thanks for this, very much appreciated.

    Does CWGC state where the remains and effects were found please. A map reference, street name, place name, anything?

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
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