KSLI D-day 6/7 June 1944 is there a complete list of killed/died/missing

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by HarryClarke, May 23, 2020.

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  1. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    [Please tell me where to move this request, if this is the wrong place to post it.]

    Seeking a definitive full list of KSLI men who were killed/died/are permanently missing, in relation to the D-day landings for this army unit. Looking at June 6th 1944 primarily.

    I have read reports (on here and elsewhere) which say that a landing craft associated with the KSLI was definitely hit, and a Troop-carrying area on the craft was affected, resulting in deaths. The dead were 'buried at sea' on the return journey of the landing craft, because they had orders NOT to bring back casualties to the UK for fear it would interfere with the embarcation process.

    The CWGC info. that I can see, doesn't seem to reflect the fact that there were some deaths during the landing process (which were not on French soil, since the casualties weren't brought onto land.) But I could be mis-reading it.

    How might these events have been reported, and how might the casualties have been recorded?
    Thanks for all your suggestions, and please correct me if I'm mistaken in anything I write.

    Thank you
    Harry (researcher)
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD


    From CWGC: all KSLI deaths, for dates from 5th to 8th June 1944 [incl].
    Results
    The results will include all within the date parameter regardless of where they may have died /Theatre/ are now commemorated, whether a grave or memorial. (You can widen or narrow date range when searching for Regimental casualties; as long as you specify only Regiment the search will produce all deaths.)


    North West Europe: The King's Shropshire Light Infantry; missing personnel | The National Archives
    Reference: WO 361/607
    North West Europe: The King's Shropshire Light Infantry; missing personnel
    Date: 1944 Aug 01 - 1945 Jul 31
    [n.b. File dates above are not related to dates of casualties]
     
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  3. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    dbf, thank you for your expertise :)

    The CWGC results for KSLI for those dates seem all to be graves for men who are named and buried. I don't think the records are complete. In theory, yes, these results should include all personnel lost within those dates, regardless of their fate/place of death, but things aren't always so simple.

    The missing personnel files are a great link, many thanks. It says they aren't digitised yet (requiring a personal visit), but maybe someone has a copy somewhere?

    Also, how can I establish the exact ID/numbering of those Landing Crafts which brought in KSLI on 6th June 1944?

    Harry
     
  4. Serials of craft (LTINs) carrying KSLI are readily available (see Trux' thread on SWORD and the 3 Br Inf Div Landing Tables on this forum).
    As for matching LTINs with hull numbers, this is an other story...
    I'll try and list what I have so far, time permitting.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    You've intimated this general belief in another thread but I've no idea on what you've based this.

    The results just happen to show burials because for those dates there were none commemorated on Memorials. There are none commemorated on Memorials because no one from the Regiment was declared dead on those dates. In this case if someone was lost/buried at sea their names would be on Bayeux Memorial or possibly Brookwood Memorial... yet still turn up on the search results.

    Many of us here have conducted research to compile Rolls of Honour for particular units. It naturally begins with CWGC but is cross-referenced with Rolls of Honour, usually found in Appendices of Regimental Histories as well as other sources. Just to explain where I'm coming from - I've also collated info from Missing personnel files, POW source material, War Diaries, medal recommendations, personal accounts, & any other related publications yet I haven't discovered one single non-Commemorated casualty for 5 regiments, with more than 15 battalions: there's either a Headstone or a Memorial.



    The Missing Personnel file quoted in earlier post should be useful in determining which individuals went missing from the KSLI in NWE and when.

    If you want to understand procedure, this is well worth the effort. Quite a sizeable file, very detailed.
    General procedure for dealing with casualties in war | The National Archives
    Reference: WO 162/199
    Description: General procedure for dealing with casualties in war
    Date: (1939)


    Also, KSLI museum have archives - Research - Soldiers of Shropshire


    If no-one else can share Missing Personnel file, it'd be worth checking with either of these researchers who between them must have photographed 1000's of TNA files.
    Lee - http://ww2talk.com/index.php?members/psywar-org.2876/
    or
    Drew http://ww2talk.com/index.php?members/drew5233.6786/

    Hope some of that proves to be useful.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  6. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    dbf
    Everything you write here is immensely useful. You obviously have a solid background in handling records and making sense of what is there; you wrote:
    "Just to explain where I'm coming from - I've also collated info from Missing personnel files, POW source material, War Diaries, medal recommendations, personal accounts, & any other related publications yet I haven't discovered one single non-Commemorated casualty for 5 regiments, with more than 15 battalions: there's either a Headstone or a Memorial."

    Thank you for your work, you're a generous and very skilled individual.

    To explain where I'm coming from (and to clarify my comment): I am 100% certain that records are 'incomplete' in the sense that publicly available information is definitely incorrect in some instances e.g. indexes are often wrong; personnel named on memorials are not necessarily missing and un-buried (they do have graves, because we find them); carvings are wrong (e.g. on gravestones); the ID of 'Unknown' personnel in burials can be known, through detailed research; people declared missing are/were not missing; and yes, some people were missed off the records, or the surviving records do not show their presence for one reason and another. Search results are not infallible. Nothing is perfect.
    I don't feel that any soul should be forgotten, mislaid, misrepresented, or their fate left a mystery. Which is why I help. So please bear with me, and thank you for guiding me, it's very helpful and much appreciated.
    I will approach Lee and Drew. I will read the file on procedure: nothing is too sizeable (I'm a practised speed-reader). And I'm collecting info. on those landing crafts thanks to your members here.
    More soon. Bless you.
    Harry
     
  7. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    .......................................
    Thank you Michel Sabarly, I will consult the thread.
    I'd love to have your list too (there's no hurry, truly).
    Grateful thanks, Harry
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I am 100% certain that records are 'incomplete' in the sense that publicly available information is definitely incorrect in some instances e.g.
    indexes are often wrong; Which indices? Many forum members routinely inform CWGC of incorrect / additional info, so I wouldn't disagree but there have been years to reconcile nominal rolls, missing personnel files & casualty lists with CWGC commemoration as far as serving personnel names are concerned.
    personnel named on memorials are not necessarily missing and un-buried (they do have graves, because we find them); This is a given: many graves marked 'Known Unto God' contain remains which could not be identified at the time. Also there are graves which could not be located later on; remains which have been discovered recently on old battlefields. Nevertheless, the names of these individuals are on Memorials. Units would know who they've missed.
    carvings are wrong (e.g. on gravestones); There are indeed errors in spelling, in dates, etc, online details also being problematic through digitisation, yet that's not a real indicator of the Missing being omitted entirely from commemoration.
    the ID of 'Unknown' personnel in burials can be known, through detailed research; one case here. A great result. But again, his name was on Dunkirk Memorial before, via extensive research, his 'anonymous' grave was positively identified in Becklingen War Cemetery.
    people declared missing are/were not missing; They were, until they were located. I've posted the stats on your other thread.
    and yes, some people were missed off the records, or the surviving records do not show their presence for one reason and another. Local memorials perhaps. CWGC records? I've seen cases for eg Civilians who might have been missed, Merchant Navy for whom criteria for commemoration is different, but not Army.

    Search results are not infallible. Nothing is perfect. Depends a lot on the input doesn't it. Not knowing unit and/or name is a definite handicap. Which is what concerns me.

    I hope I'm wrong and you find who you're looking for. But, from my end it looks more and more like you're trying hard to make a theory of omission fit. It's not a personal attack here, you've freely admitted that military research is not your area which is why presumably you joined the forum and indeed why we've all been trying to help.
     
  9. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    dbf, some call you Diane, so I'll follow suit :)

    I don't consider myself an expert in anything, just vastly experienced (compared with your average human) through decades of exploration.

    Until there's no such thing as human error, there is still the possibility of a record-set containing mistaken 'facts', or of something being left out, sometimes intentionally.

    The hand-written, hand-typed army records I've consulted this month are littered with errors, corrections, corrections-of-corrections and more. Real people are/were creating them, people like you and me, and they make mistakes. A line in an official army document I've recently read said "CASUALTIES TO CASUALTY REPORTS"... which of course should have been "CORRECTIONS" to casualty reports - so if the wording of the correction sections is flawed, God help us in knowing the truth.

    You've made a few presumptions in your comments on this request, perhaps linking it in your mind to my previous request where the army unit was far from definite. (But we still solved it.)

    In the spirit of friendship, I would say that I feel you've adopted somewhat fixed views about how the army operates, and your words seem to indicate that the army can never be wrong, and its systems and records are all polished and perfect. I wish life were like that, but it isn't. Errors are made, even at the very top.

    On a different topic, my name was misrepresented in The Daily Telegraph which was reporting on my Oxford University Degree. There's no way of ever removing this, it's there for all eternity. It appears to convey the truth to whoever reads it, e.g. in online sources or newspaper archives. But it's wrong.

    I don't want to be 'attacked' or cross-questioned every time I put up a request for information or for guidance to the whereabouts of records, so please don't take this line, and please prevent others from doing so. Please accept that I have genuine reason for asking the questions I ask, otherwise I would not be asking them. Please just help, in a gentle, accepting way.

    Harry
     
  10. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Harry,

    Which "unit" are you enquiring about? A particular battalion of the KSLI or all members of the regiment who were killed on D-Day, no matter which unit they were serving with at the time?

    I ask, because at least one of those noted on the CWGC website as from the KSLI was serving with a parachute brigade of 6th Airborne Division on D-Day.

    Can you provide a reference for the "buried at sea" report? It might be that that report is where the confusion lies.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  11. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    To be honest I think Diane has been very diplomatic in this thread (as were most people in the other thread) - while you are suggesting she is approaching this with the view the Army is never wrong (I'd suggest rarely wrong in casualty details rather than never) but you seem to be approaching with the view they are always wrong and things are never as straightforward as they seem. The Military and the CWGC put massive effort into this research, the information was the basis for lots of correspondence with next of kin and units, both sides I would assume would challenge back errors. plus its had years of researchers pointing out flaws so while they still exist there relatively few.

    You also mention the unit being far from clear in your other thread, but from the Military and CWGC side the unit is clear, as is the name - the confusing was in the question which had a different unit and different name.

    I'm not trying to have a dig, and as I said in the other thread I hope you find what you are looking for but your approach does seem rather muddled and lacking in trust of officialdom for a long term researcher

    Alistair
     
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  12. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    "I'm not trying to have a dig, and as I said in the other thread I hope you find what you are looking for but your approach does seem rather muddled and lacking in trust of officialdom for a long term researcher"

    Alistair[/QUOTE]
    .............................................................................................................

    Alistair, I'm here to praise (not criticise), and I have tremendous respect for everyone who contributes to the collection and organising of records for posterity. And nowhere have I suggested that the army is always wrong - those are your words, not mine.

    Having viewed literally millions of records in many different fields, I feel I'm justified in a lack of trust in the absolute accuracy of what humans provide. I can supply hundreds of pieces of evidence to back this up. So there is always - and always has to be - the consideration that something is amiss. And I'm not muddled, I'm highly organised, and also a very successful solver of historical puzzles.

    I'm trying to shed light on a mystery, and the more information I can gather, the more light I can shine. Please can we not have any argument about whether the army is, or is not, always right. Please can we focus on what I'm asking for, which is information.

    Harry
     
  13. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    To
    ..............................................

    Tom, thank you so much for this suggestion.
    The problem I am having with this site is that some members jump in and pump you for 100% accurate facts straight away - and if you don't have them (and few people do), then you get attacked or insulted, ouch. But when solving a puzzle, by definition you don't have everything you need, and you have to inch your way towards your goal, smell your way forward. Your kind suggestion broadens things out and gives one possible way to go.

    I read the 'buried at sea' report on here, I believe, but I didn't make notes. I'll see if I can retrieve it and report back.

    Harry
     
  14. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Are you seeking a list as you have a name of a missing soldier? Or do you think there are some unrecorded deaths from damage to a landing craft?

    I'm sorry you have a problem with this site - I've always found that it is an amazingly welcoming forum where established and newly joining members collaborate to try to further all our understanding.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  15. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    A quick look at WO171/702 - 185 Infantry Brigade HQ war diary shows this:

    "Two of 2 WARWICK and one of 2 KSLI’s LCIs were hit by shells and mortars and battalions suffered a small number of casualties before disembarking."

    According to the account of 2 KSLI's landing in Andrew Stewart's "Caen Controversy" on p.113,

    "One of these landing craft, which had carried in X Company, was hit by shellfire just after the men disembarked and sank on the beach".

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  16. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Tom, this is great. Thank you. It's different from what I saw, and it's very helpful.
    So X company suffered damage, it seems. 2KSLI. Small number of casualties.
    Brilliant. I'll follow this up.

    Every little clue and lead helps to guide me towards where I need to go.

    It may turn out that 6 June is incorrect for a date of death. I have to leave room for manoeuvre. But I go for the obvious things first, and knock them out one by one if they prove to be false.

    Harry
     
  17. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Tom OBrien, I was recommended to make a post on here by a current member who I 'met' elsewhere online. He said he always found help here.

    The problems I am having, seem to stem from the fact that I don't have cast-iron information to offer, or a barrow-load of details. But everyone who's seeking answers is lacking facts - that's why we need to ask. And sometimes we then have to adjust the questions according to the information we're subsequently given. It's a gradual process of gaining understanding. So I need to be treated gently and with respect, and not told I'm "muddled" or disorganised, or I'm having a go at the army etc. That's all wrong.

    I'm a biographer (not army) and a writer, and I collect a great many facts and organise them into books, which people buy. [I'm not asking for KSLI facts to go into any book - I'm trying to solve a puzzle.] My work involves approaching people who know, and politely asking them for information. Usually I'm received with kindness. But not on here.

    I'm tough, though! And I'm not going away.

    Harry
     
  18. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Well, it might help if you told us what the mystery was...just sayin'! :D

    Well, it may have done, but that's not what the quotes I posted up say is it?

    How, and to do what?

    Regards but frustrated,

    Tom
     
  19. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Really?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  20. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    OK, I will remove myself. No wish to be attacked any further.
    Astonished. But not surprised.
    Harry
    ............................................................................................................................
     
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