BAOR - SRY - Grandpa what did you do after the war?

I have been reading some of the accounts of my granddad in the time immediately after the end of the war in Europe and for him to be honest it was still pretty much business as usual and seemingly for quite a while just as dangerous all told. Some accounts of the aftermath of the European war’s end are pretty horrifying and then on the other hand later, some of the jobs he had to do he actually quite enjoyed.

At one point for quite a time he was “running a schnapps factory” on a Baronial estate, I suspect near Einbeck. American G.I.’s would turn up and buy schapps for their troops but he wasn’t allowed to get any for the British that were serving there as things were deeply in austerity mode and the government wanted the USD!

 

In Einbeck? Sechs Hundert Jahr Bierstadt? But I guess they drank Schnapps as well.

Chris

 

This was the wheat based Northern stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnapps

Flavoured I guess with all sorts of things. I don't think that they just sold the one kind. Probably served as Rocket fuel also I guess

I found one of the Hardenberg distilleries nr. Einbeck that might have fit the bill, but it's early days and the details around that don't yet seem to sit right with what I currently understand.

All the best,

Rm.

e.g.
http://www.pizzatravel.com.ua/eng/germany/9/castle_and_palace_hardenberg

 

Following this thread I have found some interesting stories about the Hardenberg's though by-the-by:

It's a pretty big family though:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardenberg_(nieders%C3%A4chsisches_Adelsgeschlecht)

And the family page translates:
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardenberg_(nieders%25C3%25A4chsisches_Adelsgeschlecht)&prev=search

I think this seems to be about the most "famous" of the WW2 ones? and a honorific Graf / Count.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl-Hans_Graf_von_Hardenberg

Though the chap at Nordheim:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Graf_von_Hardenberg

Has a very similar name, he's a different person i.e. Born 19th July 1893- died 19th October 1965, more of a "Baron" - Freiherr von Hardenberg - than a "Count" - as by this point the honorific "Graf" was just a part of the surname the whole family used.
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Graf_von_Hardenberg&usg=ALkJrhhMLezm6oEAtwd7Kzg5Jjp1BUciKw

There's a slim possibility, that this is the place:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardenberg-Wilthen

But the whole history of BAOR and just post war in Europe Germany in a mammoth (sometimes harrowing) task I guess to take on, only for those with the stamina for the really long haul I suppose

All the best,

Rm.

 

But the whole history of BAOR and just post war in Europe Germany in a mammoth (sometimes harrowing) task I guess to take on, only for those with the stamina for the really long haul I suppose


Myself and Bluebell Minor have been researching the very subject over the last few years, as the task is so great I will be sticking to the formations and their major units, from VE day with 4 x British Corps down to 1 x Infantry Division and 2 x Districts in early 1948, will be some time before ready to publish our findings

What unit was your Grandad? From Jul 45 13th Infantry Brigade of 5th Infantry Division was responsible for Kreis Einbeck

 

At this point he was signing his address as Sgt. Ben Symes, HQ sqd Sherwood Rangers. BAOR.

And was driving trucks, looking after local disturbances and chatting with some Baronial type who was "up in the Chateau/ Schloss where they had their sergeant's mess.

I can't be 100% sure but the officers were pretty thin on the ground and they were rather hard pressed.

There was a park with hunting (rabbits and deer - I suppose the boar's were either all gone or better hid) and fishing, trout mainly, but not really I'm guessing too much time off.

All the best,

Rm.

 

"....a walk-on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage?". Who's said it better?

Maybe Kipling: http://www.best-poems.net/rudyard_kipling/the_return.html

I commend the next verse to your attention.

 

This was on the other day, on BBC (TV Channel) FOUR. (So should be available on the iplayer for the next 3 weeks or so)

The British Army of the Rhine: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nj3xx

The affectionate story of British servicemen and their families who had to make Germany a home from home in the decades after the Second World War. For nearly 70 years, generations would grow up on bases with special schools, shops, housing and even their own radio station, as parts of the Rhineland became little bubbles of Britishness.

Featuring a nostalgic soundtrack of German language versions of period pop hits and contributions from military historians such as Max Hastings and former BBC sports commentator Barry Davies - himself a former British Army of the Rhine soldier - as well as those of military wives and children.
Once the front line in the Cold War, the BAOR is now being called home as the Ministry of Defence begins preparations to finally pull British forces out.

......

For which there is a thread here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/59505-british-army-of-the-rhine/

 

As regards the "War Diaries" and the BAOR... I did wonder if these ceased to be the "records to read" after the end of the European war?

Were there ever official "Peace Diaries" ? or records of operations etc. when not actually "at war" ?

Granddad was wounded on the 3rd August 1945:

BWAS TC Detail by Ramiles posted Dec 1, 2015 at 11:51 AM

But the SRY for this date and the next few days, after that has actually very little to say...

3rd August 1945
N.T.R.
4th August 1945
N.T.R.
5th August 1945
Voluntary service in EINBECK at 11.00.
Chaplain to the 2nd Wilts took the service.

Family legend has it that he was "wounded" playing football - but whilst a lot of the war diary after the European war seems to entail listing football matches, cricket, hockey and other regimental sports, there was only N.T.R on that day. They seem to have been in Einbeck around then though.

As well as on the 11th August at a Regimental dance held in Kellet Couteeu.

 

May I add a belated contribution to this ongoing discussion?

My sources are
a. The concise history of 8 Armoured Brigade (available on line as www.warlinks.com/armour/8th_armoured/Chapte_7
b. G War Diaries of Headquarters 13 Infantry Brigade
c. Extracts from the G War Diaries of HQ 30 Corps for Summer 1945 provided by my good friend Historic Steve who is currently deciphering the contents, a task complicated by the customary contradictions, ommissions and mispelling of German place names

In essence

RHQ SRY was in the area of Karlshoffer, a tiny hamlet in Gemeinde Gnarrenburg, to the north east of Bremen in the Cuxhaven peninsular, under command 8 Armoured Brigade, the 30 Corps Armoured Reserve on VE Day..

In mid May the entire Brigade was involved with a complicated series of moves involving British, American and Soviet Forces as they moved from their respective VE Day positions to locations within their new Zones of Occupation. The entire 8 Armoured Brigade moved south to the Hannover area, SRY to Ronnenburg on the 22nd May.

SRY stay there was brief and on 6th June they moved to Langenweddengen near Magdeburg.

On the Ist July SRY moved to Einbeck under command 13 Infantry Brigade of 5 Infantry Division where they were to remain till late October 1945 when they reverted to 8 Armoured Brigade command and probably moved to an as yet unknown location.(11 RTR are shown as being in Einbeck in November 1945 in a 13 Brigade LOCSTAT)

SRY disbanded in February 1946..

 

Granddad can be quite detailed in some instances about "where he was and when" whereas at other times it's altogether very vague so a lot of "detective" work is "required"

Thanks for your post though (#10 above) - I'll ref it with some of his places and dates and the SRY war diary which I also have (at some future point) - ocasionally he was tasked with driving hundreds of miles through Germany after the war in convoys he said he had to lead as there wasn't an "officer" in sight - usually he seemed to be picking up coal and lumber, when he wasn't running a schnapps distillery and dealing with DPs (displaced persons) and local mayors.

At one point he asked a mayor for a bit of help clearing up after some Italian POWs had left and he (the mayor) turned up with about 50 German hausfraus who "cleared the place up" in less than a morning... gd. offered to pay and the Mayor said, "no it's our pleasure, they all volunteered... we are so glad you are here and not the Russians..." (Gd. I think was having to clear things up just prior to the SRY's departure and the Russians moving in and taking over this area...).

So it’s my “suspicion” at the moment that this occurred near Langenweddengen or near Magdeburg:

Albeit in the original German (google has been kind enough to translate) here:
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langenweddingen&prev=search

It is currently rather a case of “don’t mention the war” I guess…

The SRY WD though has this for 11th June 1945:

"Major Ringrose recced new area for RHQ, visit by commander 8th Armd Bde announced for Wednesday following. Colonel attended conference at 09.00 at 156 Bde. on question of DPs. Regiment informed by high authority that the take over of MAGDEBURG area by the Russians was not to be denied."

And on the 15th June 1945 a bit later:

"RHQ and HQ Sqn move to G.R. GERMERSLEBEN in the morning. C Sqn joind A Sqn in KL WANZLEBEN. Duties of regiment handed over to 10 Surrey Regiment. Colonel attended divisional conference at 10.30 at OSCHERSLEBEN. Adjutant attended routine conference at MAGDEBURG RATHAUS, decided that German civilians would be permitted to move west if Russians took over, but would not be encouraged to leave. Poles and western nationals to be evacuated west."

and... 18th June 1945

"Warning order received from 5 Div. to move to EINBECK in the event of Russians taking over divisional area."

(Just when did the "cold war" start / hot-up.... )

All the best,

Rm.

 

As above, (post #10) I did a bit of "mapping" of the SRY movements post the end of the war in Europe however it rapidly grew very complex i.e. as in...

"In mid May the entire Brigade was involved with a complicated series of moves involving British, American and Soviet Forces as they moved from their respective VE Day positions to locations within their new Zones of Occupation. The entire 8 Armoured Brigade moved south to the Hannover area, SRY to Ronnenburg on the 22nd May.
SRY stay there was brief and on 6th June they moved to Langenweddengen near Magdeburg.
On the Ist July SRY moved to Einbeck under command 13 Infantry Brigade of 5 Infantry Division where they were to remain till late October 1945 when they reverted to 8 Armoured Brigade command and probably moved to an as yet unknown location.(11 RTR are shown as being in Einbeck in November 1945 in a 13 Brigade LOCSTAT)
SRY disbanded in February 1946."

However the SRY Wardiary for the end of September has this:

28th September 1945
"C.O. & Adjutant attended farewell party to 5th Essex at officers Club, Golas. News arrived that Regt would be moving to Hannover."

15th October 1945
"All B & C Sqn tanks left for 117 V.P. Hamburg. Sqn Leaders Conference re training for new role. 1 N.C.O. & 3 men went on Berlin Train Guard."

18th October 1945
"RHQ, Recce Troop & A Sqn tanks left for 117 V.P. Hamburg."

31st October 1945
"Regt moved to Hannover. HQ to BEMEROOE 424192."

I have further info. and need to do a bit more "research" about where my grandfather "fitted" in to all of this etc. Though he seems to have been involved in relief trips and recce etc. (I think) to Berlin etc. Even his letters seem a bit "guarded" about certain information though, so I expect / wonder that the "censor" was still in effect even after the end of the War in Europe there.

Specifically I tried to work out what the whole "to Magdeburg and back" thing was about and it seemed like it was just on the "road to Berlin" and gd. was at one point expecting to be posted / stationed there.

30 Corps District by Ramiles posted Mar 3, 2016 at 12:49 PM

All the best,

Rm.

 

My father's RASC unit also took a wide detour to Magdeburg on the 6th of June 1945. I have a hunch that he was one of the thousands to be involved in the 'repatriation' of Soviet POW's at the behest of Stalin. British troops involved were read the Official Secrets Act and this was not rescinded until the early 1970's. It was covered up as many of the POW's did not want to go and there are reports of suicides and people getting shot trying to escape. Many were reportedly executed by Stalin's troops as soon as they were handed over, especially the Cossacks. Others were sent to Siberia. My father then went to Hamburg where he remained for 6 months with BAOR.

 

Well there are certainly some passing refs to Russian DP's and Russian troop movements etc. Though I haven't yet "tied" down specifically what "Exercise Hammer" was as far as it concerned the SRY, however a number of other Exercise Hammer's "google results" point towards (i.e. seem to relate to) various instances of infantry training with armoured support, not that this has to mean very much, it does however (to me) sound quite bellicose.

As regards when it was (widely?) reported that they (the Russians) were executed i.e. not when they were executed (as they were handed over) but when it was reported that they were executed "by Stalin's troops" there is no mention of this however, that I have seen as yet. No "mention" of Cossacks either. The SRY still had their tanks (they were informed that they would lose them only on the 24th September 1945 and the tanks were gone sometime in October I think). So I had half wondered if the SRY were considered, at some stage, to be a potential armoured element to "protect" British interests in Western Berlin, or in keeping the road and rail corridors to Berlin open there. Realistically though unless they actually wanted WW3 (or merely for WW2 to go on vs. the Russians) I can't but see that they had to do muchly as the Russians wanted there...

May 23rd 1945
Commander 8th Armd Bde. visited T targets 14.15 hrs. Many incidents with Poles and Russian DP, such as pilfering of clothes and food, stealing bicycles and attempted rape.

June 31st 1945
Exercise Hammer begun, conference at division 14.30 hrs. B Sqn were to remain with 15 Bde, regiment less B Sqn came under division with took of a escorting PWS from present location to new area 10 miles west outside Russian demarcation-line. Once task completed, regiment to move to EINBECK 4760. PWS to begin moving west on the 1st July except for those living in the Russian occupied territory who were to concentrate at HAMMERSLEBEN.

July 1st 1945
German PWs moved west to area JERHEIM 1691, escorted by C Coy 12 KRRC and Recce troop. A and C Sqns screened North and South flanks of the line of march. No difficulties arose. Russians moved forward to stop –line past east of OSCHERSLEBEN. I.O. recced new RHQ at SOLLINGEN.

July 3rd 1945
RHQ and Sqns moved West of Russian demarcation line. RHQ set up at SOLLINGEN. Same duties as before containing 307 German Division.

July 10th 1945
Received orders to move 200 Russian DPs. As Russians unable to move postponed till next day.

July 11th 1945
Sqn conference at R.H.Q. 10.00 hrs to discuss composition of troop commanders guard. 200 Russian DPs moved.

 

Meant to say DP's rather than POW's as many of them were enforced labourers who had been brought to Germany after the invasion of Russia.

 

Formal war diaries continued until around June 1946, and interesting reading they can make.
After that historical reports were filed. Initially at least these continued in much the same way as war diaries but gradually became less detailed and more humdrum in nature.

 

Thanks PsyWar.Org (post #16) I noticed that the war diaries say at the top "War Diary or Intelligence Summary" erase heading not required (with the Intelligence Summary dutifully crossed out) - and although the war in Europe had come to an end that vs. Japan was still for a time going on. With the prospects for some still of being transferred there. I agree "but gradually became less detailed and more humdrum in nature." - a lot of the SRY's is a list of NTRs (Nothing to reports) as well as a summary of events like officers going off to other posts, training or leave as well as sports events (generally with their results) and notices of things like Regimental dances and ceremonies and the marking of anniversaries and seasonal events.

Re. post #13 (above) - I recall that there’s a few mentions here in episode #85
http://russianrulers.podhoster.com/index.php?sid=2742&m=04&y=2012

About some of the post European war settlements – and concessions to Stalin etc.

About 7.30mins in he talks about repatriations – and Stalin and the UN, with the Soviets agreeing to enter into the war against Japan. The principals of the Atlantic charter and the Yalta agreement and about 9mins in, Stalin privately confiding to Molotov his opting to do things "his own way", and planning his next steps.

At about 11mins – the turning over to Stalin of former White army officers, Cossacks etc. rounded up from the “Alps” and sent to die in Russia by the British is mentioned there.

Even talks about Smersh at about 19.30mins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMERSH

For a lot of people, I wonder if the first they knew of this etc. was taken from James Bond: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMERSH_(James_Bond)
(Sorry - bracked mean link prob won't work! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMERSH_(James_Bond) (cut'n'paste might thou.)

Including even the bit about the Cossacks in GoldenEye : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldenEye

Repatriation of Cossacks after World War II : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Cossacks_after_World_War_II

I still don't know if the "move to Magdeburg" and back etc. had anything to do with this particular incident/incidents though?

All the best,

Rm.

 

Thanks Ramiles your detail has helped with my 30 Corps research

Specifically I tried to work out what the whole "to Magdeburg and back" thing was about and it seemed like it was just on the "road to Berlin" and gd. was at one point expecting to be posted / stationed there.

SRY went to 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division who arrived 24 May 45 to relieve 102nd Infantry Division command 13th Corps United States Army HQ Oschersleben south west of Magdeburg by 27 May 45

On 10 Jun 45 they were relieved by 5th Infantry Division who started to hand over the area to the Russians on 18 Jun 45 moving their divisional HQ to Vechelde west of Braunschweig

Best regards

 

No probs.

BTW... I concur with "a task complicated by the customary contradictions, ommissions and mispelling of German place names" in post #10 above.

The place that the SRY knew as "Kellet Couteeu" as well as the "Kellet Kanteen" could have / would have had me stumped for a bit (in fact slightly still does) as Kellet was a name that was familiar to them - i.e. see it on here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwood_Rangers_Yeomanry

So... : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Orlando_Kellett

I also have examples of some correspondence of my gd with a Mrs.E.O.Kellett Chairman* (*i.e. Chairwoman, they used "Chairman" for her on letter heads there though, not sure now which version is thought most PC - chairperson perhaps?) of the SRY Welfare Association.

I wonder now if there is perhaps still a place named "Kellett" somewhere in Germany - perhaps someone with an SRY connections knows, perhaps...

All the best,

Rm.

 

There is a map here: https://umgebung.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/library-11203.jpg

Of the route of the British Military Train (the Berliner)

Along with a few google links to this topic here:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=British+military+train+the+Berlinner&oq=British+military+train+the+Berlinner+&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.7937j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Including: http://baor-locations.org/BMT.aspx.html