Dunkirk

What stopped the Germans from turning Dunkirk into a Killing Field?

Many did die. But those straight lines of retreating troops must have been easy targets.

There should have been much more destruction.

 

What stopped the Germans from turning Dunkirk into a Killing Field?

Many did die. But those straight lines of retreating troops must have been easy targets.

There should have been much more destruction.
What I have read from the German's perspective is that Goering wanted to give the destruction to the Luftwaffe as a reward. Weather set in and the Brits managed to escape. Sometimes I wonder if "coincidences" like these are not the divine hand of God intervening. There are some really strange ones with the Japanese scout planes at Midway. Makes you think.

 

I agree with the view that "this was a point when Hitler was most seriously considering how to come to peace with Great Britain", but not with the view that Hitler in any way 'Trusted' Goering. He knew him for what he was, a has-been fighter pilot who no matter how flamboyant was a political ally.

It may also be possible that such an evacuation was not envisaged and there was no real urgency. The British and French were as good as defeated and there was no reason to risk ground forces in chasing them into the sea.

The fact that the British managed to pull such a sucessful escape plan out of nowhere was as much a surprise to the British as it was to the Germans.

 

True. But why would the Germans make a quick attack on a retreating army when they truly believed they had time to organise something a bit more focused and nasty? Take your time and do the job properly, kind of thing. As it was the Navy managed to pull together a hodge-podge of rescue vessles and got a hell of a lot of men off the beaches. Added to this were those volunteers who styed behind to slow down the advancing german forces at a cost to their own lives, to give their comrades a chance to get away. it's amazing what a man who has decided to die can do. I certainly wouldn't want to go up against a man with nothing to lose.
I think someone was looking down on the BEF on those few days.

 

It was probably one of the few times when you could call a defeat, a victory. How many men were evac? Was it 330,000?

 

What I had read in a Luftwaffe book was that they were scheduled to bomb Dunkirk but the weather would not cooperate and it even allowed the British to escape without detection because of the cloud cover. I can't say that's right but it was written seriously. The idea of Hitler suing for peace is certainly plausible as I read in his biography that he preferred not to attack Britain. But the two seem like they are in conflict. There very well could be a little truth in both of them. How long does it take to offer peace? Does anyone know if this was proffered?

 

There are probably a number of reasons.
The way Hitler regarded the UK and the fact that Goring wanted the Luftwaffe to finish the job, and he said that they could.

On another note. I know that RAF pilots were slated in pubs and in the street by the Army for not protecting the evac from the air afterwards. However, the RAF were there but fighting further in land, away from eyes on the beaches. I think there was quite alot of resentment from the Army towards the Brylcream Boys. Maybe Sapper would know more about this.

 

What stopped the Germans from turning Dunkirk into a Killing Field?

Many did die. But those straight lines of retreating troops must have been easy targets.

There should have been much more destruction.

There should have been more destruction however from what I have read over the years there were the two physical aspects and of course the theoretical.

The theoretical is that Hitler wished for a peace settlement and was enveloping Dunkirk to ensure that when he did put forward the proposal the British would receive the nod from the British command at Dunkirk that the situation was hopeless ensuring a total capitulation of the BEF and others and his wish for the surrender of Britain guaranteed.

The physical is in three parts:

(1) Logistical: The Germans were running short of fuel, ammunition and other supplies and needed to replenish before the next phase of the operation whatever that may be.

(2) Weather: The weather reports were less than encouraging for total air cover to support the push and a "halt" was ordered to wait for an improvement as Dunkirk was surrounded and they were not going anywhere. By th 4th of June the Luftwaffe had sunk 13 destroyers (6 RN & 7 French) alone with 19 badly damaged.

(3) Breakout: Even though there was a wish to push through and destroy the force completely, there was a worry in some quarters that a full assault without full provisioning could result in a breakout with half of the Germans themselves being surrounded. (I do not like posting info I cannot support, but for the life of me I cannot find this detailed summation I had read that this was considered plausible).

Time was therefore on the side of the Germans as you just do not allow the possibility that 800 craft can come across the channel and assist in plucking 350,000 men from a beach.

Dunkirk's evacuation through Operation Dynamo gave encouragement to Britain to continue the fight and was virtually publicised as a victory.

NB:

With Dunkirk's evacuation ending on the 4th of June, Britain set about evacuating the rest of the forces in France which is not very well publicised then and not really well known now.

10th - The evacuation of British and Allied forces from the rest of France gets underway. Starting with Operation 'Cycle', 11,000 are lifted off from the Channel port of Le Havre.

15th - Operation 'Aerial' begins with the evacuation of Cherbourg and continues for the next 10 days, moving south right down to the Franco-Spanish border.

17th - The only major loss during the evacuation from western France is off St Nazaire. The liner “Lancastria” is bombed and sunk with the death of nearly 3,000 men.

25th - The Allied evacuation of France ends with a further 215,000 servicemen and civilians saved, but Operations 'Aerial' and 'Cycle' never capture the public's imagination like the 'miracle' of Dunkirk.

Nearly 600,000 repatriated to Britain to fight another day.

Luck or intervention?

 

Good Lord, i had never heard of the other evacs. Thanks for that Spidge.
As to Hitler suign for peace at the same time as allowing the Luftwaffe to plan the destruction of the BEF, it's possible he was planning on both of them.
After the Dams raids germany had a complete Upkeep bomb from one of the crashes, they worked it out in record time and were preparing to build their own to use against us when Hitler changed his mind. Imagine the devestation if the dams above Sheffield or Manchester had been breached? Hitler was not the most stable of personalities even this early in the war.
Kitty

 

I knew about the other evacuations. "Arial" was interesting, as it pulled out the whole of the 1st Canadian Division. They landed in Brittany, marched across, and then were ordered to Cherbourg to head back to England. They only lost eight guys in the movement as MIAs, and I believe they turned up. However, they did lose a number of guns and vehicles. Still, 1st Canadian was in better shape than most British divisions after Dunkirk.

One of the big factors in the German failure at Dunkirk was their lack of experience with amphibious operations. They didn't believe the British could evacuate that many men under heavy bombardment in a short time, so they decided to regroup and re-fuel before trying to attack across the canal-intensive terrain. They figured they had time to squeeze the pocket, so why not do it properly and at a minimum of casualties?

I have never swallowed the argument that Hitler deliberately stopped his panzers to let the British escape, for some kind of peace deal. If that had been the case, the 51st Highland Division would not have been bagged a short time later at St. Valery-en-Caux. Furthermore, I think that Hitler, who based much of his political and military strategy on propaganda, would have loudly announced that he was giving the British an opportunity to save face and manpower at Dunkirk, if they agreed to a peace. Given the freshness of the Churchill government, I could see appeasers supporting the idea of signing a peace to save the boys across the Channel.

 

I would agree with you Kiwi. I dont think that Hitler would have lost that opportunity for a propaganda coup. Anyways at that point the majority of the French Army still had to be faced and no-one was quite sure what sort of battles lay ahead.

 

Thanks everyone. Some very comprehensive answers there. Don't stop.

 

The 52nd Lowland Division evacuated intact with all their equipment from Cherbourg and were encamped at Kennet in southern England as Invasion reserve.

 

Just aquick thing about Dunkirk. One of my Great-Uncles was there and he had to leave behind a silver tea-set he had bought for his mother. If anyone finds it can they please return it. cheers.
Kitty.

 

Dunkirk and the land around it is not easy to assault - the Germans only surrendered it on May 9 1945

 

the arguement surronding the stopping of the german forces at Dunkirk is still going on there is no clear answer as to why they did. Many writers point to the fact that the germans had very little tank support available because of the wear and tear caused by the Blitzkrieg operations. this sounds a bit more feasible than some story about political considerations.

Had Hitler wanted a peace treaty with britian, then there were still diplomatic channels available to him. However, britian had made it clear that it was waging a total war and only the defeat of germany would suffice. this may have been a bit of bluster on the part of the british governemt but it did have an effect of the british civilian and military personnel.

 

the arguement surronding the stopping of the german forces at Dunkirk is still going on there is no clear answer as to why they did. Many writers point to the fact that the germans had very little tank support available because of the wear and tear caused by the Blitzkrieg operations. this sounds a bit more feasible than some story about political considerations.

Had Hitler wanted a peace treaty with britian, then there were still diplomatic channels available to him. However, britian had made it clear that it was waging a total war and only the defeat of germany would suffice. this may have been a bit of bluster on the part of the british governemt but it did have an effect of the british civilian and military personnel.

I think that it was logistics pure & simple and he just did not understand the ways of a seafaring country and the possibility that the troops could be salvaged by over 800 craft.

It was a hollow victory, yet a victory in kind all the same which lifted the spirits of the British people.

 

An interesting little book by Douglas Williams, Retreat from Dunkirk only 93 pages long but packed with many facts written by the Daily Telegraph War Correspondent, published in 1941 with a forward by General Lord Gort.
The dust cover contains the following:
'A series of eye-witness stories of stands and skirmishes in the great retreat to the coast.
This volume went through several editions in England under the title of The New Contemptibles.
The Comtemptibles, so called by the English themselves, was the original British Expeditionary Force sent to France in 1914. As we all know, the force was made up of some of the best fighting men in the world, but was so small as to be only slightly effective against the fully prepared German legions. Douglas Williams, correspondent for the Daily Telegraph with the army in Flanders, has characterized the B.E.F. as The New Contemptibles.
This volume is a collection of brilliant first hand accounts of the great retreat to Dunkirk and the unprecedented evacuation of that seaport. They have been most appreciated by the British Army itself which felt that too little was known of the heroic fight put up by the magnificent and often completely isolated units of the rear guard covering evacuation. These men, through no fault of their own, were involved in the disaster which overtook the B.E.F. These incidents show how the evacuation of Dunkirk was only made possible by the rear guard gallantries of units and their brilliant counter attacks'.
The book is rather dated in style, as it should be, but it contains some 'human interest' stories such as Germans dressed as women and producing Tommy-guns from under their skirts and shooting at units. It also contains a chapter on the Arras tank battle.

Kiwiwriter
Only two Brigades 152nd (Seaforths & Camerons) & 153rd (Gorden Highlanders & Black Watch) Brigades of the 51st Highland Division were captured at St.Valery-en-Caux on 12th June 1940. The third Brigade the 154th(Black Watch and Argylls) was evacuated from La Havre on 11th June.

 

Dunkirk and the land around it is not easy to assault - the Germans only surrendered it on May 9 1945

Oh my, put down the pipe or prove this please.