Zhukov--As cruel as Stalin?

Discussion in 'General' started by machine shop tom, Dec 29, 2007.

  1. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Oh....and PLENTY of Russian dissidents will agree with me about the crimes of the Soviet regime......but of course, Russia does not listen to it's exiles, anymore than the Tsars took notice of two of the people they had placed in exile themselves, but had come back to bite the ancien regime....ULAYANOV and STALIN.....in fact, Joeseph Djuigishvarly (I did not speel that correctly)..., better known as STALIN, originally rose to prominence in the Bolshevik central committee by his ability to provide cold hard CASH that had been ROBBED from government banks....It is rather ironic that the city whose defences he organised in the Russian Civil war bore the name of the old regime itself, TSARITSYN........he renamed the city after himself....or his new revolutionary self....STALIN (Man of Steel)......so, Uncle Joe was an old CROOK from the very beginning!...

    Take that!
     
  2. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Heres something for all you cold warrior Stalinists to chew on....

    From the Book...."RUSSIA UNDER THE BOLSHEVIK REGIME".....by Richard Pipes....

    .....Page 401, paragraph 2....

    "The principle of "revolutionary legality" was routinely violated under NEP (the organisation that ran a network of 315 concentration camps by October, 1923), as before, not only because of the extensive extra-judiciary powers given the G.P.U. but also because Lenin regarded the law as an arm of politics and courts as agencies of government..."

    This is important, because it violates Montesques "Separation of Powers Doctrine" of 1759 which states, quite clearly, that the State, the Judiciary and the Church must all be kept within their own spheres of power and influence, and that the lines of authority should NEVER CROSS OVER......Mr Pipes continues....

    "His conception of law became clear in 1922 during the drafting of Soviet Russia's first Criminal Code. Dissatisfied with the draft submitted by the Commissar of Justice, D.I. Kurskii, Lenin gave precise instructions on how to deal with political crimes. These he defined as "The propaganda and agitation or participation in organizations or assistance to organizations that help (by means of propaganda and agitation), the international bourgeoisie." Such "crimes" were to be punished by death, or, in the event of extenuateing circumstances, by imprisonment or expulsion abroad. Lenin's formulation resembled the equally vague criteria of political crimes given in 1845 in the criminal code of Nicolas I, which had mandated severe punishment for persons "guilty of writing or spreading written or printed works or representations intended to arouse disrespect for Sovereign Authority, or for the personal qualities of the Soveriegn, or for his government." Under Tsarism, however, such actions were NOT punishable by death. Implementing Lenin's instructions, jurists drew up Articles 57 & 58, omnibus clauses that gave courts arbitrary powers to sentence undesirables for alleged counterrevolutionary activity, which Stalin would later use to give the appearence of legality to his terror. That Lenin realised the implications of his instructions is evident from the guidence he gave Kurskii. The task of the judiciary, he wrote, was to provide,
    "a principled and politically correct (and not merely narrowly judicial) essence and justification of terror......The court is not to eliminate terror....but to substantiate it and legitimize it in principle."
    For the first time in legal history, the function of legal proceedings was defined to be not dispensing justice but terrorizing the population.
    Communist legal historians, discussing the legal practices of the 1920s, defined law as "a disciplining principle that helps strengthen the Soviet State and develop the Socialst economy." This definition justified the repression of any individual or group that, in the judgement of the authorities, harmed the interests of the State or inhibited the development of a new economic order. Thus, the liquidation of "kulaks", carried out by Stalin in 1928-1931, in which millions of peasants were dispossessed and deported, mostly to death camps, was carried out strictly within the terms of Leninist jurisprudence. According to Article No.1 of the First Soviet Civil Code (1923), the civil rights of citizens were protected by law only to the extent that these rights did not "contradict their socio-economic purpose" (NAZNACHENIE).
    To make it easier for the judges to carry out their new responsiblitites, Lenin freed them from customary coutroom procedures. Several innovations were introduced. Crime was determined not by formal criteria- the infraction of law- but by it's percieved potential consequnces, that is, by 'material' or "sociological" standard, which defined it as "any action or inaction dangerous to society, which threatens the foundations of the Soviet regime." Guilt could also be established by proving "intent", the object of punishment being "subjective criminal intention." In 1923, in an appendix to Article 57 of the Criminal Code, "counterrevolutionary" activity was defined in so broad a fashion as to cover ANY deed which the authorities disapproved. It stated that in addition to actions committed for the express purpose of overthrowing or weakening government, or rendering assistance to "the international bourgeoisie", "counterrevolutionary" qualified also actions that.....

    ..."without being directly intended to attain these objectives, nevertheless, as far as a person committing the act was concerned, represented a deliberate assault (POKUSHENIE) on the fundamental political and economic conquests of the Proletarian Revolution.".....

    Under this definition the desire to make a profit, for example, could be interpreted as counterrevolutionary activity and merit CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. Commenting on this revision of Article 57, N.V. Krylenko remarked that such "elasticity" of punative measures were required to deal with "concealed forms of counterrevolutionary activity", their most prevalent form. The principle of "analogy" made it possible to charge citizens for crimes not directly but similar in nature.
    Such standards were infinitely flexible...."

    Obviously, it seems some of you Russian boys had better go back and hit the books......I'll take this as "case proven", unless the Soviet apologists have anything of a sourced nature they can provide by way of rebuttal....meantime, those Russian Cold Warrior blinkers are still in place...

    Aren't they? (winks & Smiles all round!)
     
  3. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    so ,did mr trotski say or write anything derogitary about mr stalin,christos.yours,lee.
     
  4. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Lee....Leon Trotsky was a thorn in the side of the Bolshevik regime.....he was assasinated by Stalin's agents......they put an ice-pick through his skull....made very sure he wouldn't become a literary embarrassment to the Party and to Stalin himself.....Trotsky was only one of many of Stalin's old party comrades betrayed by Uncle Joe....a more ruthless politician in the modern period we will not find, and the sheer scale of his crimes makes it laughable for anyone to try a denial thesis.
     
  5. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    ah,but do you know anything he actually wrote about our geogian friend.im on your side too my greek friend.yours,lee.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  7. freebird

    freebird Senior Member

    this statement you made is, imo, an outright bigotry.
    unlike the Nazis, Stalin has never been accused in front of international court.
    legally, he is absolutely clean of all accusations.



    He hasn't been charged with anything BECAUSE HE IS DEAD!

    tom

    I guess they will have to dig 'im up & put on trial!

    this statement you made is, imo, an outright bigotry.
    unlike the Nazis, Stalin has never been accused in front of international court.
    legally, he is absolutely clean of all accusations.

    really ?...
    kulaks, in fact, were those who lobbied their interests by attempts to dictate a corn price.
    they wanted to control the cities' markets, see.

    This is a joke right?!?
     
  8. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    hit the books
    - depends on who wrote and who published the books in question; seems like none of those books is based on documents, so how can you trust them?
     
  9. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    all the attacks on Soviet leaders have a target to belittle and derogate Russian and Soviet achievements all together, especially the decisive role of the Soviet Union in the victory in WWII where the Red Army destroyed 80% of German Army, and the main events and biggest battles took place on the Eastern Front.
     
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    all the attacks on Soviet leaders have a target to belittle and derogate Russian and Soviet achievements all together, especially the decisive role of the Soviet Union in the victory in WWII where the Red Army destroyed 80% of German Army, and the main events and biggest battles took place on the Eastern Front.
    Hello T-34, How are you??? :lol:
    Yes indeed no complaints from me about your assertion that the Red Army played a decisive role in WW2.
     
  11. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    Hello T-34, How are you???
    i'm fine, thanks.
    hope that you are fine too.
     
  12. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Indeed I am!
     
  13. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    Where have you been T-34?

    Learning how to fish? Dropping the hook to see what you get.
     
  14. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    Learning how to fish? Dropping the hook to see what you get.
    hmmm, and what i get here ?
     
  15. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    hmmm, and what i get here ?

    Not much!
     
  16. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    Not much!
    - indeed, not much.
     
  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Perhaps we should raise an inquest to determine how did this clown get in here again.

    :screwy:
     
  18. arkrite

    arkrite Senior Member

    I think Zhukov was a great General .I am also glad that my time spent on Earth was not as one of his soldiers. It must have been close to hell at times with Death handing out entry tickets.
     
  19. azza

    azza Member

    Theres a good film you should watch T34, its called "Russias War-Blood Upon The Snow". That should give you a good insight into what Stalin was really like even to his own people
     
  20. azza

    azza Member

    Im not sure how you manage to compare Stalin to FDR and Churchill. A closer comparrison might be Hitler, I sometimes struggle to think who of those two was worse. Maybe you could put Mussolini on that list as well but he was just a nancy hanging onto Hitlers apron strings. He only got his big head back when he gave Ethiopia a smack
     

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