X lists (Service Records)

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Kieron Hill, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Oops, sorry mate, hadn't spotted that.
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    :D I meant if anyone spots some other worthy threads, Owen will obviously be delighted to consider the merits of moving them.
     
  3. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Very diplomatic Di! :)
     
  4. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Hello all,

    I don't know if this topic has been updated elsewhere but this explanation for Xi to Xv from the Commando Veterans forum is the best one I have come across.

    Her is a link to the page but I have copied and pasted below as I think the link will change as more posts are made to their forum.

    http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/990.page

    Thanks.

    Carl

    X Lists, 1939-1945
    Almost without exception, Second World War army service records contain numerous references to the ?X Lists?. The X Lists recorded personnel who were absent from their regular units for one
    reason or another.

    THE ?X? LIST
    1. All personnel are held on the posted strength of a unit or are carried on the ?X? list.

    2. The ?X? list is maintained in 5 sections, and all transfers to and from it ? or from one section of it to another. Units will, of course, record casualty movements within the sections of, or involving transfer to, or from the ?X? list.

    3. THE X (i) LIST comprises all ranks posted to fill vacancies in authorised War Establishments of a Headquarters or an extra-regimental unit (such as a base depot, school etc.). An officer placed in X (i) list will be seconded.

    4. THE X (ii) LIST comprises all ranks evacuated on medical grounds beyond Regimental First Aid Post. Personnel so evacuated cease to be on the effective strength of their units. Temporary or acting rank will be relinquished 28 days after being so transferred to X (ii) list. Personnel
    remain in X (ii) list until they are classified as fit for posting when they are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps and marched out to the appropriate training depot, or until discharged by a medical unit direct to their original units.

    5. THE X (iii) LIST comprises
    X(iii)a Confirmed prisoners of war,
    X(iii)b Personnel officially declared missing,
    X(iii)c OR under un-suspended sentence of detention or imprisonment (personnel undergoing field punishment remain on unit strength),
    X(iii)d Deserters
    Missing personnel will NOT be transferred to X (iii) list until the official notification is received. Deserters are NOT struck off unit strength until [notification] is received and personnel are declared deserters through Part II Orders. Temporary or acting rank will be retained by, and
    extra-duty pay will continue to be payable to, personnel posted missing or PoW [Prisoner of War].

    6. THE X (iv) LIST comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts. Personnel discharged from (x(ii)) to Training Depots, fit for duty, are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps, until posted to a unit, when they are struck off X (iv) and taken on unit strength. Reinforcements in transit between the Base and a unit remain on X (iv) (and the Base Depot strength) until they actually reach and are taken on the strength by the unit to which they are proceeding. Escaped PoWs [Prisoners of War] who until such escape have been on the X (iii) list
    are transferred to X (iv) list on reaching their respective training depots.

    7. THE X (v) LIST
    X(v)a When officer personnel attend as students at courses of instructions or schools, for more than twenty-eight days, they will be transferred to X (v) list.
    X(v)b When other rank personnel attend as students at courses of instruction for more then twenty-eight days, they will be transferred to X (v) list (and thus struck off the strength of their unit) unless the unit expressly states that they should remain detached.
    X(v)c All candidates for OCTU [Officer Cadet Training Unit] will immediately transferred to X (v) list; on commissioning they will be transferred to X (iv) list of their corps and subsequently posted to a unit.
    X(v)d All personnel acting as instructors at courses or schools outside the ?., or struck off unit strength for duty with a unit outside the ?., will be transferred to X (v) list. Although officers might in such circumstances be seconded, they will be placed on X (v) list.

    8. Immediately an officer or other rank is transferred to the ?x? list, he is ?lost? to his unit, and is immediately replaceable by a reinforcement. Subject to Regulations, a vacancy for promotion is immediately created. It is in the interest of the unit to make immediate promotion or replacement as there is no guarantee that the individual will ever return to his unit. Return of specialist may, however, be requested ?..Once personnel are transferred to X (iv) list from any other section of
    the ?X? list, they are liable to be used as reinforcements for any unit within their own corps.
    Subject to certain conditions and exceptions as laid down in Regulations, acting or temporary rank will be relinquished on transfer to the ?X? list.
    Personnel temporarily detached from their units and not actually posted or transferred to other units or corps will NOT be transferred to the ?X? list, neither will they be replaceable by reinforcements.
     
    dbf likes this.
  5. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

    Thanks Carl,

    That now makes a lot of sense and helps me with interpreting the records I have.

    Mark
     
  6. keithlockwood

    keithlockwood Junior Member

    I believe I now have an answer to my previous post - number 16 on this topic - regarding the meaning of Code X21 which appears three times on my father's 5th Bn Coldstream Guards Service Record.

    I believe it means 'Compassionate Leave' or something synonymous.

    The basis of this deduction (if you are interested) is below.


    My late father Reginald (‘Reg’) Lockwood was born in the village of Whitley in May 1924. Aged 19 he joined up with the Coldstream Guards and served with the 5th Battalion in North-West Europe from early August 1944 through to the end of the war. He then transferred to peace-keeping duties with the 1st Battalion (the 5th was disbanded) and remained overseas until the end of 1946.

    Shortly before last Christmas I obtained a copy of a short history of Whitley and Eggborough School.

    A page in the book is a ‘roll of honour’ giving the names of all of the ex-pupils of the school who were killed in the two wars. The name Donald Ellison attracted me as the entry stated that he served with the 5th Battalion Coldstream Guards. I had no idea that there was anyone else from the village who had served with the 5th at the same time as my father.

    Because Donald was 4 years older than Reg, I thought it was possible that they had not known each other well prior to the war. Donald’s service number suggests that he had joined up months, if not years before Reg, so I thought it entirely likely that it was just chance that two young men from the same village ended up in the same Battalion. I presumed though that, despite there being over 800 Guardsmen in the Battalion, the village connection would have probably been made soon after Reg’s arrival in Normandy.

    Detailed genealogical research has shown that Donald and Reg were also distant cousins - Donald's Great Grandmother was Elizabeth Lockwood - but I can’t be sure that they were aware they were blood relatives.

    Donald is named in issue No. 4 of the Battalion Newsletter “Over To You” (29th June 1944) as being wounded in fighting close to the Carpiquet airfield West of Caen – this was within the first 3/4 days of landing in Normandy. He subsequently recovered and returned to the front line. Records show that Donald died of his wounds on 28th September – it is not known when he received them, but it is likely that this was during the latter stages of Operation Market Garden (September 17th -26th). His body was returned home and buried in his home parish church- St Edmunds Kellington, near Whitley on 4th October.

    Reg’s transfer to ‘X21’ is from 2nd to 14th October. I believe he was granted compassionate leave (coded as X21) to accompany Donald’s body on the two day journey home from South-West of Nijmegen just five miles from the German border and to represent the Battalion at the funeral. If it wasn’t known beforehand that they were also cousins I suspect with his Donald’s Grandmother Clara - the daughter of Elizabeth Lockwood – almost certainly at the funeral that connection will finally have been made.
     
    CeliaM likes this.
  7. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Hello Keith,

    It was policy for bodies not to be repatriated after death but buried where they had fallen.

    It is likely that he was evacuated to the UK wounded and died of his wounds there.

    I don't think there was a system for escorts from battalions for wounded men either but you could have something on Reg being released to attend the funeral after news reached them that Donald had died of wounds.

    Depends if they could spare him at the time I presume.

    Regards.

    Carl
     
  8. 10Dorking

    10Dorking New Member

    Hi One and All.

    A big thank you to all contributors who have taken the time and trouble to post a simple explanations of X Lists.
    XII refs appear frequently in my fathers service record when he was serving with The RE in India during The Burma Campaign.
    We always knew that he had been hospitalised but had no idea until now of the frequency of these events.
    (He of course never talked about it!!)
    Is there any way to find out which hospital(s) he was in and what the underlying cause(s) were?

    Thanks again.

    10 Dorking
     
  9. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    The numbers of the hospital(s) should be listed on his service records. Here is a link to a list of hospitals posted on this forum by Sue Light which you may find of interest
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/18948-british-general-hospitals-locations/

    If this doesn't answer your question, perhaps you would like to post the records up we can take a look at them for you.

    Lesley
     
  10. bLACKCOUNTRY MON

    bLACKCOUNTRY MON Active Member

    I've read through the thread but haven't seen what the difference between x(iv)a and x(iv)b are. Any help will be appreciated.
     
  11. JamieC

    JamieC Junior Member

    my grandfathers records show that he was posted to the X(4) list 2AA D&TR (or DFTR or DFCR). What could that be?
     
  12. JamieC

    JamieC Junior Member

    see attached
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    error

    David
     
  14. JamieC

    JamieC Junior Member

    I read through that link but not sure it really answers my question..

    I was thinking the abbeviation may be a unit of some kind? 2AA DFTR? Any ideas??
     
  15. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Jamie,

    I note you have made a couple of posts from a single B103.


    I think it would help forum members if you posted all your relatives service record papers so we can get a context and give you a considered opinion.

    Regards

    Steve Y
     
  16. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    AAD&Tr Anti Aircraft Defence and Training
     
  17. Tim Mitchell

    Tim Mitchell New Member

    I just wanted to say thank-you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It has proved invaluable in helping me to understand the X-List system.

    In order to help others, so that you don't all need to go through all the research that I had to do, I've put together a summary of the X-List system here: http://www.timmitchell.fr/blog/2016/02/25/x-list/

    best wishes
    Tim
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Many thanks Tim, :)

    That crosses off one of my things on the list of to do's...

    Specifically, that is, this bit here: (from your link)

    The Z List formed part of the Army Reserve.

    The Class Z Reserve was originally created by an Army Order issued on 3rd December 1918.5 The British government was concerned that Germany might not accept the terms offered under a peace treaty, and that war might again break out. So in order to be able to quickly recall men in the event of hostilities breaking out again, the Class Z Reserve was created. When they were demobilised, men were placed in the Class Z Reserve. They returned to civilian life, but they were liable to return if called up. The Class Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920 and all men were released from it.6

    After the Second World War, the Class Z Reserve was recreated and men who were demobilised were placed in it. In the event, some Class Z reservists were called up during the Korean War (1951) and the Suez Crisis (1956).


    Something I had outstanding here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60136-z-records/

    It says "After the Second World War" - thou. so I wonder if there was a Z records office or unit specially tasked with demobalisation etc. or if this was just a type of "army slang" for some-such thing?

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  19. TrueBlueAngel

    TrueBlueAngel Member

    Can anyone help with an entry on my grandfathers records please?
    I have Struck Off Strength to X spec r/c X (8) list. I can't find, for definite, x(8) but I think it might mean returned to England? I've attached the record. It's second from the bottom. I'm also hoping that the two hospital entries on this page might be when he was shot. I just can't see any way of knowing for sure on here.
    Thanks.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. TrueBlueAngel

    TrueBlueAngel Member

    Just a little,bump up, hoping someone can help with this last query please?
     

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