X lists (Service Records)

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Kieron Hill, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. Kieron Hill

    Kieron Hill Senior Member

    I am hoping that one of the veterans
    on here maybe able to help me on this
    one, I have been going through my
    granddads service records and came
    across things like X(ii) and X(iv) and
    wonder what they stood for, well I did
    a google search and found the following
    information on the New Zealand National
    Archive site. The info below would make
    sense of his service record and fill in gaps
    in my research. So would the British and
    New Zealand Army operate the same sort
    of system with regards "X" lists? I also have
    reference to "Y" lists, any ideas guys?

    Cheers
    Kieron

    X Lists, 2 New Zealand Expeditionary Force 1939-1945

    Almost without exception, Second World War army service records contain numerous references to the ‘X Lists’. The X Lists recorded personnel who were absent from their regular units for one reason or another.

    Reproduced below is the definition of the various classes of X-List given in R. S. Wogan, A treatise on the pay and records procedure inaugurated, developed, and maintained for the Second New Zealand Expeditionary Force and the Territorial Forces (Records) within New Zealand during the war years 1939-1945 and afterwards (Wellington: Army Dept, 1948), pp107-109:

    THE “X” LIST

    12. All personnel of 2 NZEF are held on the posted strength of a unit or are carried on the “X” list.

    13. The “X” list is maintained in 5 sections, and all transfers to and from it – or from one section of it to another – are carried out by 2 Ech*. Units will, of course, casualty movements within the sections of, or involving transfer to, or from the “X” list, but 2 Ech will be the deciding authority on all questions concerning the “X” list.


    14. THE X (i) LIST comprises all ranks posted to fill vacancies in authorised WEs [War Establishments] of a 2 NZEF Headquarters or a 2 NZEF extra-regimental unit (such as a base depot, school etc.). An officer placed in X (i) list will be seconded.

    15. THE X (ii) LIST comprises all ranks evacuated on medical grounds beyond RAP [Regimental Aid Post]. Personnel so evacuated cease to be on the effective strength of their units. Temporary or acting rank will be relinquished 28 days after being so transferred to X (ii) list. Personnel remain in X (ii) list until they are classified as fit for posting by NZ Reception Depot (when they are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps and marched out to the appropriate training depot), or until discharged by a medical unit direct to their original units. Personnel who, after evacuation beyond RAP are medically graded 1A or lower remain on X (ii) list until they are either (a) placed on NZ Roll, or (b) posted to a Base establishment, or (c) transferred to X (i) list at the Base. Personnel of HQs, or extra-regimental units, may as a matter of convenience be posted direct from NZ Reception Depot and need not be marched through their appropriate training depot. Any extra-duty pay will cease 7 days after transfer to X (ii) list, subject to the proviso that if prior replacement is made ED pay will cease from such prior date.

    16. THE X (iii) LIST comprises

    (a) Confirmed prisoners of war,
    (b) Personnel officially declared missing,
    (c) OR under un-suspended sentence of detention or imprisonment (personnel undergoing field punishment remain on unit strength),
    (d) Deserters

    Missing personnel will NOT be transferred to X (iii) list until the official notification is received from 2 Ech. Deserters are NOT struck off unit strength until [notification] is received by 2 Ech and personnel are declared deserters by 2 Ech through Part II Orders. Temporary or acting rank will be retained by, and extra-duty pay will continue to be payable to, personnel posted missing or PW [Prisoner of War].

    17. THE X (iv) LIST comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts. Personnel discharged from NZ Reception Depot (x(ii)) to Training Depots, fit for duty, are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps, until posted to a unit, when they are struck off X (iv) and taken on unit strength. Reinforcements in transit between the Base and a unit remain on X (iv) (and the Base Depot strength) until they actually reach and are taken on the strength by the unit to which they are proceeding. Escaped PsW [Prisoners of War] who until such escape have been on the X (iii) list are transferred to X (iv) list on reaching their respective training depots.

    18. THE X (v) LIST

    (a) When officer personnel attend as students at courses of instructions or schools, for more than twenty-eight days, they will, ONLY at the discretion of MS, 2 NZEF, be transferred to X (v) list.
    (b) When other rank personnel attend as students at courses of instruction for more then twenty-eight days, they will be transferred to X (v) list (and thus struck off the strength of their unit) unless the unit expressly states that they should remain detached.
    (c) All candidates for OCTU [Officer Cadet Training Unit] will immediately transferred to X (v) list; on commissioning they will be transferred to X (iv) list of their corps and subsequently posted to a unit.
    (d) All personnel acting as instructors at courses or schools outside the 2 NZEF, or struck off unit strength for duty with a unit outside the 2 NZEF, will be transferred to X (v) list. Although officers might in such circumstances be seconded, they will be placed on X (v) list.

    19. Immediately an officer or other rank is transferred to the “x” list, he is “lost” to his unit, and is immediately replaceable by a reinforcement. Subject to ….2 NZEF Regulations, a vacancy for promotion is immediately created. It is in the interest of the unit to make immediate promotion or replacement as there is no guarantee that the individual will ever return to his unit. Return of specialist may, however, be requested …..Once personnel are transferred to X (iv) list from any other section of the “X” list, they are liable to be used as reinforcements for any unit within their own corps. Subject to certain conditions and exceptions as laid down in 2 NZEF Regulations, acting or temporary rank will be relinquished on transfer to the “X” list.

    Personnel temporarily detached from their units and not actually posted or transferred to other units or corps will NOT be transferred to the “X” list, neither will they be replaceable by reinforcements.


    * 2 Ech was ‘2nd Echelon’ 2 NZEF – this was the administrative body set up at 2 NZEF Base Camp in the Middle East and Italy to process personnel matters within the expeditionary force. A separate ‘Base Records’ establishment processed personnel records in New Zealand.


    Postings, Transfers, Attachments and Marching “In” or “Out”

    Wogan’s “treatise on the pay and records procedure” also specifies the precise meaning of these commonly used terms:

    ….the terms “posted”, “transferred”, “marched in” or “out” are used in 2 NZEF as under:

    POSTED: Any disposition of a soldier within his own corps or arm of the service; i.e., a soldier is “posted” to any unit of his own corps or to an HQ or extra-regimental unit, but not the “X” list.

    TRANSFERRED: Any disposition of a soldier to a corps or arm of the service other than that to which he was originally posted: i.e., a soldier is “transferred” if, being a soldier of the NZ Engineers, he is struck off the strength of NZE and taken on the strength of the NZ Corps of Signals. He is also “transferred” to the “X” list. (HQ 2 NZEF authority is required for all inter-corps transfers).


    ATTACHED: Used only to denote the temporary removal of a soldier from one unit to another. “Attaching” never removes a soldier from the strength of his original corps or takes him off the strength of a unit.

    MARCHED IN OR OUT: Used to indicate the actual arrival in or departure from a unit, except in the case of arrivals and departures of patients to and from hospitals, in which case the terms “admitted” and “discharged” will be used.
     
    ramacal and MyOldDad like this.
  2. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Kieron

    Y List

    The army ruling at one time was that if a soldier had been in hospital for 21 days or more he was put on the Y-list; which meant that when he became fit for duty he was sent to a holding unit and then could be sent to any unit other than his own. This, in most cases, was not a popular move which, I believe under the orders of General Montgomery, was changed. The ruling became that if a soldier was in hospital for 21 day when wounded or sick for 30 days he was entitled to seven days home sick leave and then would return to his own unit if they wished or could be transferred to another unit.

    My Dad's service record did exactly that shown above. Went into hospital early July 1942 and 21 days later was posted to the Y List. He did return to his own unit in October that year.

    Hope that was of some help.

    Also when my Dad was demobbed, he was posted to the Y List. Maybe one of the Vets can tell us a bit more.

    Cheers - Robert
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Is there a guide to reading service records in the form of a book or a website?

    Cheers
    Andy
     
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  4. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    I think it's rapidly become this Forum Andy:D
     
    brithm and Owen like this.
  5. DaveW53

    DaveW53 Member

    Kieron

    The information you have uncovered makes perfect sense with my own father's records. He has references to X(ii) and X(iv) lists plus a posting to "YB", which is probably a reference to hopital because he had just suffered a broken pelvis. Here is the link to my original thread, with images, that produced some good reponses from members and may be useful to you too.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/15071-researching-dad-east-lancs-reg-rasc.html

    He started his army life in the 5th battalion East Lancs Regiment but after the injury (much later) transferred to the RASC. The following is a response from RASC/RCT Association when asked about service records and abbreviations:

    "With regard to the abbreviation YB and X (IV) list. The only light that we can shed is that soldiers held between postings or in hospital under going long term treatment or convalesence were placed on such lists, pending posting to a unit. The exact meaning of the Y lists and X lists we do not know. It is highly likely that your late father was injured and hs medical grading made him unsuitable for infantry service but alright for employments as a driver within an RASC unit."

    Thanks for posting and good luck with your search.

    Dave
     
  6. Condie

    Condie Member

    My Great Uncle's posting list also included X(iv) List a couple of times.
    He was in North Africa with Black Watch and posted to Ox & Bucks in Italy.

    I had taken it that as part of the Italy campaign in 10 corps (the X) 4th Div ? the iv. Thats the way I read it. So he was awaiting posting into 10 corps.
    I have been told that a second entry of this shows him being taken off list and the next entry would show his posting.

    After reading the X list info earlier in this thread, I reckon it makes sense. I was not aware of X list and was under the impression that it related to 10 corps (x)

    Can anybody actually confirm that the British Army run X lists as the New Zealand info below??
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Hi

    Going back to the beginning of this thread I was interested to re-read Kieron's New Zealand explanation of "X" Lists and it seems to cover most of the categories used.

    I went back to my own records and on Sheet No.6 noted the following uses of the infamous X list which seems to confirm the various numbers used in brackets, as in X(4), etc.

    13/03/1944 Admitted to 11th Field Ambulance and posted to X (2) list (From Cassino)
    17/03/1944 Transferred to 93 General Hospital (Naples)
    30/03/1944 Posted back to 49th LAA Rgt (Cassino)
    13/12/1944 Transferred to RACTD (Royal Armoured Corps Training Depot) at Rieti X (4) list
     

    Attached Files:

  8. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

    Kieron

    Y List

    The army ruling at one time was that if a soldier had been in hospital for 21 days or more he was put on the Y-list; which meant that when he became fit for duty he was sent to a holding unit and then could be sent to any unit other than his own. This, in most cases, was not a popular move which, I believe under the orders of General Montgomery, was changed. The ruling became that if a soldier was in hospital for 21 day when wounded or sick for 30 days he was entitled to seven days home sick leave and then would return to his own unit if they wished or could be transferred to another unit.

    My Dad's service record did exactly that shown above. Went into hospital early July 1942 and 21 days later was posted to the Y List. He did return to his own unit in October that year.

    Hope that was of some help.

    Also when my Dad was demobbed, he was posted to the Y List. Maybe one of the Vets can tell us a bit more.

    Cheers - Robert

    My father was aslo posted to "Y" list on his release in 1946.

    Thanks for posting this Kieron, it has been really helpful to me (took me a while to find it though!!)
    Tom.
     
  9. 3RRF

    3RRF Junior Member

    hi
    my Father also had abbreviations which now with some of your help i can understand, but what i cannot understand is, he is down on Y list on the 26/3/42 and again on 24/11/42 then he is down as x (iv) 11/8/43 then transfered to 1st and 6th battalions (seaforth highlanders) then again x(ii) on 2/1/44 and then x(iv) on 18/2/44 but there is no mention of any wounds or injurys on his service record. all this info is on his copy of p.o.w. card

    any one got any clues please:(
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The X list was - and probably still is - after X2 - was depending on the category of sickness - sometimes a re grading was in order - then the Y list would cut in - meaning unemployed until re graded and posted - most demobbed were placed on the X(T) reserve which meant that they were liable for recall - i.e Korea etc -

    after a five month spell in hospital as X something or WIA -wounded in action - I was discharged "ISQ" Latin for 'In Status Quo' - meant that I was still 100% - A1 and could fight some more...which was why I was thrown off the Blighty Bound Hospital Ship at Catania - Sicily to be patched up and thrown back up the line .
    Cheers
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    3RRF -
    the X list applied to ALL sicknesses - not necessarily wounds or injuries - we still got all the usual illnesses - Malaria -Gastro-Enteritis -Flu -Sore throats - Lice - thing was - you had to pack all your gear - then parade on the sick parade - in the hot sun - so many ilnesses were not worth the bother and we just got on with it..
    Cheers
     
  12. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Here is a link to Canadian X lists which are different than those noted above. Would be very curious to confirm which variation the British used, or whether they perhaps used both in different circumstances. Wonder if the use of roman numerals vs numbers was a useful distinction and whether this varied by Army, or whether there was perhaps a geographical distinction based on theatre. The linked X list matches my research in NWE, no experience with what the Canadians used in Italy.

    CSC Discussion Forum: Canadian Service Records
     
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just bumping this up as a new member just asked what the X(ii) List was.
    Also made thread sticky.
     
  14. BrownN

    BrownN Junior Member

    I know this is late for this thread but the thread has been open for a considerable period of time, altho I just stumbled upon it today..


    I recently received a current (April 2012) interpretation of the Canadian Army "X LISTS" from researcher Arnie Kay who is helping me research my father's service record in the Italian Campaign.


    I am attaching it here as it seems the X LISTS are not uniform from country to country.


    IE: My father was hospitalized in Italy three times wounded, each admission classified as X3.


    If serving in an New Zealand regiment, as X3, he would have been designated a POW, a deserter, missing, imprisoned or in detention rather than a patient. Just a bit of difference . . .LOL.


    Hopefully this will assist others finding themselves in a similar quandry.


    Cheers, Norma







    X-LIST on activity sheet.

    X-1 Prisoner of War
    X-2 Detention
    X-3 Hospital - means. Casualty Clearing Station behind the lines and not a front aid station .
    X-4 Un-posted Reinforcements
    X-5 Courses (for Korean War means “Outside Korea”)
    X-6 Missing
    X-7 Officers & Men Seconded
    X-8 Returned to Canada (could mean England during WW2)
    X-9 Undecided, Re-boarded etc
    X10 Reinforcements for Special Employment
    X11 Category Personnel.
    This list will help to interpret some of the terms found in WW2 & Korean service files

    ARMY Service numbers - Military district prefix letter
    A Western ON
    B Central ON mainly Toronto recruiting
    C Eastern ON Ottawa recruiting
    D Western PQ (Hull to Mtl)
    E Eastern PQ
    F NS
    G NB
    L SK
    K BC
    H MB
    M AB
    N NFLD

    Above is reference for Army enlisted persons only. Officers did not have a regimental number designation until approx. 1948
    Around this same time Army Officers were issued numbers BUT added a “Z” infront of same while enlisted personnel added a S to their existing number.

    2nd war RCAF. Enlisted men had a R letter infront of number while officers had a number which started with “J” Exception to this rule is RCAF Officers who were already in the RCAF, when war broke, out had a C number and remained with them. So C is the only duplication between army and RCAF but few not a lot of RCAF C numbers exist.
    RCN or RCNVR, their numbers usually were VR xxxxx or just Vxxxxx for enlisted men. Officer started with an O.xxxxx and was a period between letter and number.
    In 1948 the RCAF went to a number only. RCN kept the officer designation but enlisted went to a number only with an H for Halifax or a E for Esquimault (BC) and this remained constant even if the person got transferred to the other coast. Arnie
     
  15. BrownN

    BrownN Junior Member

    Further to the above X LISTS, X-8 (from my father's records) can also mean "in transit"
    - from one theatre to another, medical evacuation from one place to another, troop movements by sea or air, and/or repatriation. I suppose, any form of "in transit" where they were temporarily not avaliable for active duty postings.

    Cheers again, Norma
     
  16. keithlockwood

    keithlockwood Junior Member

    Can anyone help me with the code X-21 which appears three times and for varying lengths of time on my dad's service record.

    He served from 1944 to 1947 in NW Europe with the 5th Btn Coldstream Guards (later transferred to 1st Btn) as part of the Guards Armoured Division.
     
  17. Loubie

    Loubie Junior Member

    Hi,

    I know that this is going to sound like a very stupid question to you all so please forgive me ignorance but I'm very new - does the NZ list of X numbers also hold true for English service records. I've read through everyone's posting and cannot find a definitive yes or no.

    I have a X(8)a and an Xiv

    Many thanks


    Loubie
     
  18. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    I think they are very similar. X(8)a on my Grandad's record was for transit and X(iv) for training. Hope that helps ;)
     
  19. Loubie

    Loubie Junior Member

    Thanks RosyRedd - yes it does help.

    Loubie.
     
  20. red ling

    red ling Member

    Hi
    My father was on (Xi) when he was Port Sudan when he was tranferred to RASC and(X) list in transit camp Port Sudan when he was promoted to Corporal.
    He was also demobbed on "Y" list with a paragragh "Allocated to General Reserve for recall to age 45" then was added "Discharged from Reserve Liability June 1959"
    I can remember him having papers for the Suez crisis but it was over before he was to go.
     

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