WW2 resulted in a Cold War

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by T-34, Apr 22, 2006.

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  1. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ok, lets face the truth, the issue of who won in ww2 is not the matter of figures, historical facts etc., but the matter of pure mythology.
    for instance, to me its quite clear that russia won.
    on another hand, if we consider ww2 as only an introduction for a cold war that soon followed, then [taking into account the split-up of soviet union] america is a victor.
    after all, any country/society is based upon a myths, so let this thread be dedicated to "mythological" sort of discussion, where any kind of jingoism or blatant rhetoric would be welcomed.
     
  2. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek MOD

    Why did Stalin put so much pressure on the Western allies to start the second front?!
    This is another thread on the Eastern front and how the Russians won WWII single handedly, it's becoming tiresome.
    Not only that but it belittles the losses on the Western front, I find it distasteful.
     
  3. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    ok, lets face the truth, the issue of who won in ww2 is not the matter of figures, historical facts etc., but the matter of pure mythology.
    for instance, to me its quite clear that russia won.
    on another hand, if we consider ww2 as only an introduction for a cold war that soon followed, then [taking into account the split-up of soviet union] america is a victor.
    after all, any country/society is based upon a myths, so let this thread be dedicated to "mythological" sort of discussion, where any kind of jingoism or blatant rhetoric would be welcomed.

    That is of course assuming that a country (or union of countries), that had to oppress not only the people of other countries of the Warsaw Pact but also it's own people for the next 50 years, has actually 'won' anything. :mellow:
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Look at the industrial and finacial success of Japan (helped by US money)
    They won the War! British Industry is dead. We have a huge HONDA plant here in Swindon.
    So I say JAPAN won.:)
     
  5. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Come on! The way they constantly veto anything we want or need in the EU, it has to be France and Germany who won!
     
  6. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Come on! The way they constantly veto anything we want or need in the EU, it has to be France and Germany who won!

    So that's why the French have the 'Arch de Triumph'! I always wondered. :mellow:
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Thinking about it I reckon I'm with Owen, despite their current troubles Japan is probably the nation that emerged from ww2 having made the most positive advances from Americas generous (and I think wise) support.
    Funny old world.
     
  8. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Myths, incidentally, are not falsehoods, but are merely things unverifiable.

    The US adhered to and still does adhere to the Marshall Plan doctrine/philosphy in which if you allow nations lie in ruin, their natural path is to return to war out of survival. Ignoring their plight or exacerbating it in any way is akin to declaring war on them.

    Despite the horrors and attrocities of WWII, you have to separate the ideals of Hitler with the dire economic situation of Germany to realize they were destined to war. Hitler was simply an opportunist. This is why I have to divorce his ideals from those of the Germans in general and don't view Germans nor Nazis as the wicked idealist he and his band were. Knowing so many Germans, I have no doubt that Patton was right in saying the Nazis were simply a political party, not unlike the ones we have today. It was Hitler's absolute power mixed with his insane idealism that has unfortunately become the symbolism of Nazism. The people responsible were not simply party members but those that bought into idealism unchecked. While this was more than just a handful it was certainly not the whole lot.

    Originally the Nazis were formed to become a political power to reform the German economy. That was their true idealism which is in and of itself noble. The situation that the Treaty of Versailles left them in, having torn away their industrial sector in the Saarland, divided up parts of their country forming Czech. And forcing war reparations on an economy in collapse was a good part of why Hitler managed to gain his power. In any other situation he would have been dismissed as insane or an extremist, but for a country that was literally starving to death, hope, any kind of hope, was desired.

    I have always believed that losing a war is usually sufficient punishment in and of itself. If you push it too far, you are going to have repercussions. This was why I held the position of promoting the rememberance of the Holocaust was extremely risky. It is not that I beleive such an attrocity should be swept away but it must be tempered lest people not responsible are indicted for something they never supported or would have allowed. People can only be humiliated so far. As the bible says, in victory remember mercy. Sometimes you will be stabbed in the back for your kindness, but that is the price of doing the right thing.

    It was logical that the US do that. They suffered the least as a nation from the destruction of the war. This mercy applied to Japan as well as Germany. The USSR on the other hand did not have mercy. They learned nothing from WWI. Their idea was to enslave the Germans and starve them to death (ex: the blockade of Berlin). That with the enslavement of Eastern Europe into communism and totalitarianism was the beginning of what is affectionately referred to as the Cold War.

    The end of WWII could have been a new era in the future and relationship of the nations as Russia could have established a trade relationship with the West like Japan and Germany did. But the Russians had designs on world conquest as communism must take possessions and lives of others to feed its unquenchable appetite as a consumer and destroyer of the wealth and value of humanity. That is not a choice made by Communism and Socialism it is the very nature of it and inherent at that.

    Contrary to what people believe, it was never the Soviet people that the US vilified, it is Communism and its pupate stage we commonly refer to as Socialism whose childishly naive idealism of portraying itself as the savior of mankind from life’s economic challenges that is always, by its nature and definition destined to be the destroyer and consumer of mankind. Communism/Socialism exploits the young, inexperienced, idealistic or desperate to create for its own survival, slaves, in which it consumes the souls of its victims for its persistence until it leads them into a state of desperate existence where the very humanity is driven out of them. In this destined and debase state, you see the worst of mankind and their only hope is to prevent them from getting into that state or complete implosion of their society from which one hopes the seeds of humanity spring up in their place.

    Who then cannot look at the lives of the people of China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba, over the years and not see the deadness in their eyes, the desperation to escape these lands, and not realize that it had nothing to do with geography, resources, etc? If it did, then Britain would have been the most communist and socialist society on the earth because they are so limited in natural resources being an island. Though not always so noble, Britain’s history is nobler in that they have spread democratic ideals throughout the world beginning with the Magna Charta, ideals whose seeds led either directly or indirectly to the existence of the true civilization and democracies of the United States, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, et al. These two contrasted sets of ideals being diametrically opposite are so consistent in bearing their respective fruit, and serve as lessons that beg to be forgotten by the next generation who seem destined to relearn them in some brutal and lamentable way.

    Every nation learns technology from every war, how to wage war better, how to be less vulnerable, yet the real lessons of wars, the fundamentals of idealisms and the ultimate price they must pay in such an egregious tuition, are soon forgotten within one single generation. So the questions of why there is war and tyranny must be asked perpetually generation after generation ad infinitum.

    [FONT=&quot]Some of you in your evaluation of my motives were always wrong. It was never about the hatred for a people but rather the disdain for an ideal that spreads like the bubonic plague, until it can spread no more, leaving in its wake the destroyed lives and misery of countless people, stealing their hopes, their joys, the rights, their reason for living, all for the self-serving and perverted pleasure of the idealism itself. Contrary to what you thought, accusing me of bigotry did not pain me but rather invoked sadness in that yet another generation and yet another zealot, doesn’t get it, doesn’t understand the fundamentals of freedom and rather exalts this hideous idealism to the point of evangelism, ignoring and masking the sorrowful lessons of the generations that I have just mentioned.

    [/FONT]
     
  9. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    if we consider ww2 as only an introduction for a cold war that soon followed,

    Richard nixon said that WW3 began on the 9th May 1945. the Soviet desire to expand its empire, made confrontation between the former allies inevitable.

    The first major "cold war" was the "Police action" of korea, where it is now known that Stalin ordered it to begin and controled. Kim il Sun was only a puppet of the Soviet union.
     
  10. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Communism/Socialism exploits the young, inexperienced, idealistic or desperate to create for its own survival, slaves, in which it consumes the souls of its victims for its persistence until it leads them into a state of desperate existence where the very humanity is driven out of them.

    that is a very good summing up of the communist ideologey at work. But do not forget that the same tactics were used by the Far right parties as well.
     
  11. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    They learned nothing from WWI. Their idea was to enslave the Germans and starve them to death (ex: the blockade of Berlin).

    the berlin Blockade was more to do with bringing about an armed struggle between the Soviet union and the Allies than starving the germans.

    The actual airlift indicated to the soviets that the west would not lie in the face of the provactions.
     
  12. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Russia had designs on attacking the US before the end of WWII. Despite all that is written about Patton and his ego, I believe he was the single most misunderstood character in WWII. I believe Historians, British and American have done him a severe wrong by their unfair characterization of him. He wanted to attack Russia according to his diary because he believed they would inevitably attack the US when the troops were drawn down after the war. He wanted to hit them while their Air Force was decimated and their supplies were depleted and their limited supply lines stretched all the way back to Moscow. He was appalled at the treatments of humans where nations like Hungary and Poland begged the US to come into the country and occupy those countries and protect them from the Soviet attrocities to come. He had to deliever the cold callious refusal to these community leaders who tearfully wished him farewell because he knew that what the Germans hadn't killed, the Russians would. This pushed him beyond the edge.

    It was this cowardly act by Ike and the Russians that cost these people, who had done nothing to either nation Russia or Germany, their lives and Patton discusses in great detail how the Russian government was using Nazi-fear to try to entrench communist people in the governments of these nations including Czech. in which he tried to rescue before Stalin protested and appealed to the missing spine of Ike. If it were not for the extreme brutality of the Soviets immediately in Berlin, Austria and Bravaria. Two weeks before Patton was going to resign his commission he was killed by the 6X6 hitting the car he was in. He swore he would bring Ike before the people and show them what he had done to Europe. Ike asked Patton to run for the Senate because he was so popular with the people that he could help Ike in his greed for the office of president where humans were for sale to get him there.

    Patton politely declined. He was sickened by his former friend from West Point. Beetle Smith was Ike lap dog that stabbed Patton in the back with the whole Nazi sympathizer thing. It was the liberal press (no it didn't just become liberal recently, its where men go when their soul have disappeared and they need a job) who placed three "reporters" on a full time assignement to try to trap Patton so they could remove his threat and advance socialist power into southern Germany. Ike transferred Patton to the 15th Army to try to garner political support and to not have to address his own lack of leadership in protecting that region.

    Patton's wife Beatrice refused to publish Patton's diary until after Ike had died because Patton had such of a scathing revelation about Ike. Ironically Ike told congress in 1957 that the US should send troops to the Middle East to protect those nations against the Soviet aggression. The monster he factilitated in creating he advised they try to stop.

    Morse, you are sort of right in saying that Korea was the first action in the Cold war. But in reality the Cold War was started by the Soviet Union's dictatorship and communist structure that relied on intense distrust of everyone and everything to survive.

    You are also sort of correct in saying that extreme right uses some similar tactics in that it must protect itself from internal and external challenges. To me the Communism is worse than Facism, not the brutality part, but as an ideal because in the Fascism is practiced by virtually all nations in war time. The government does dictate the product and usage of resources for the necessity of its survival but it does not rob the people of their reward for contributing and does not remove the incentives to work harder and prosper like Socialism (Communism) does. This steals a mans identity and removes his drive and initiative. If unregulated, anything can be dangerous. But the Communist/Socialist structure removes any restraint that is possessed by the people so they are guaranteed to be at the mercy of the government. Remove a man's posessions and he is helpless and vulnerable. Communism is the mature form of Socialism. The lessons of Socialism/Communism are, as Abraham Lincoln said "You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong".
     
  13. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    He wanted to hit them while their Air Force was decimated

    Actually since the Red Air Force had around 40,000 planes in May 1945, seems Patton had troubles with math.
     
  14. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Actually since the Red Air Force had around 40,000 planes in May 1945, seems Patton had troubles with math.
    Sources please...
     
  15. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    Sources please...
    this is UNCALM cold-war-styled discussion thread, so why ask for sources...
    pure ideological rant is what counts here.

    P.S. - russia won anyways!
     
  16. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    That is of course assuming that a country (or union of countries), that had to oppress not only the people of other countries of the Warsaw Pact but also it's own people for the next 50 years, has actually 'won' anything. :mellow:
    who told you that people of USSR were "oppressed"?
     
  17. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Actually since the Red Air Force had around 40,000 planes in May 1945, seems Patton had troubles with math.

    This figure does not match my source of "operational aircraft" however look forward to your source for the differential.

    http://www.history.navy.mil/colloquia/cch6c.html

    When the Red Army launched its final assault on Berlin in May 1945, the Soviet Air Force deployed 7,500 aircraft in support of the advancing troops. At this culminating moment in the war, the Soviet Air Force boasted 18 air armies with an inventory of over 15,000 operational aircraft. World War II concluded with the Soviet Union possessing the largest tactical air force in the world.
    Few Westerners--even those with some familiarity with the history of World War II--typically think of the Soviet Union as a major air force in 1945. Our most enduring image of the Soviet Air Force is one of ineffectiveness, the victim of Operation Barbarossa. The preemptive German air strikes began on June 22, 1941. By the fall, Soviet air losses may have exceeded 7,000 aircraft.
    The Soviet air arm, however, survived these difficult days. By the summer of 1942, the Soviet Air Force had been reorganized under its talented wartime commander, A. A. Novikov. Organized into mobile air armies, Soviet air power challenged the Luftwaffe for air supremacy at Stalingrad, the Kuban, and Kursk in 1942-1943. The year 1944 saw the Soviets in firm command of the air. The air war in the east culminated in 1945 in the skies over Berlin. The air armies functioned as an integral part of Soviet combined arms warfare, providing air support for the massive ground offensives that expelled the German army and captured Berlin.1
    There was an unforseen irony to this Soviet air triumph. At the very moment of victory in 1945, many perceptive Soviet air commanders realized that the wartime design and production priorities left the Soviet Union ill-equipped for the post-war world. Fighter and ground attack aircraft had been produced in large numbers, giving the Soviets a wartime edge over the Luftwaffe. This impressive victory over the Luftwaffe did not transform the Soviet Union into a major air power. The nuclear age (with the accompanying Cold War) called for a new kind of air force, a strategic air arm with long- range bombers and the full utilization of jet engine technology to enhance aircraft speed, range, and load capacity.
    During the long and arduous war with Germany, the Soviet Air Force had evolved as a kind of flying artillery, linked organically to the army, and deployed for cooperative interaction with the ground forces. To perfect this role, the Soviet aircraft industry had been mobilized to manufacture vast numbers of tactical aircraft. Because of this wartime emergency, four-engine, long-range bombers were not produced, except for a small number of Pe 8s (only 79 built). By contrast, Soviet aviation plants manufactured over 36,000 Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmoviks.2
     
  18. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    who told you that people of USSR were "oppressed"?
    Ummm...the people of the USSR themselves? The loved ones of the people that were too dead to say so themselves? The thousands of atheletes, pilots, ballet dancers, circus workers, etc that defected when they got to civilization? The millions sent to siberia? (wow, this could go on for a while) A bit too general of a question, could you give a specific day in question and we could narrow it down to a list of a couple of hundred people to answer the question?
     
  19. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek MOD

    Mods. Can we have these two exactly the same threads merged please. Ta. I'm having read two at once!!!:)
     
  20. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    who told you that people of USSR were "oppressed"?

    http://www.state.gov/e/rls/rm/2002/9310.htm

    Don't worry about the source, look at the content.

    Emigration
    The principal goal of the Jackson-Vanik legislation in 1974 was to promote free emigration from the Soviet Union, particularly for Soviet Jews.
    We do not forget the oppression of Soviet citizens -- including religious minorities. In the spring of 1972, the Soviet government imposed an "education tax" on would-be emigrants. This tax was so steep that few could afford to depart the Soviet Union. It was against this background that Senator "Scoop" Jackson teamed up with Congressman Charles Vanik to attach their historic amendment to the 1974 Trade Act. Jackson-Vanik has been a tremendous success. Restrictions on emigration from Russia have ended. Today, the Russian Constitution grants the right to Russian citizens to emigrate. This right is readily exercised.
    Since Jackson-Vanik came into effect in 1975, 573,000 refugees -- many of these Jews, evangelical Christians and Catholics -- have resettled from the Soviet Union to the United States. Since the passage in 1989 of the Lautenberg Act, almost 235,000 Jews from the Soviet Union and its successor states have resettled in the United States. Today, the Russian Jewish community in the United States numbers between 750,000 and 1 million, though some estimates are twice as high. Since 1975, another one million Russian Jews have immigrated to Israel.
    In perhaps one of the most telling reversals of political fortune, Natan Sharansky -- once a "refusenik" imprisoned by Soviet authorities -- has, as one of Israel's Cabinet Ministers, met with President Putin in Moscow. Sharansky himself now favors terminating the application of Jackson-Vanik to Russia.
    The only emigration restrictions that remain today in Russia relate to those who have had access to state secrets. Russian legislation permits delays of up to five years, with the possibility of a five-year extension, on those with access to classified material. This law, however, has been applied only in a small number of cases. Moreover, Russian legislation provides for an appellate process; that process has found in favor of the emigre in the large majority of cases.
     

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