alieneyes / Dave, Thank you for the references in your last two posts. I had not forgotten the Yalta Agreement and the return to Soviet custody of many PoW and civilians. I recall the furore when books and accounts appeared in the UK long ago, ending with a civil court case. I note the RAND report dismisses that large numbers of US poWs were retained by the Soviets. It is not an issue I will delve into for the foreseeable future, but now others and I know where to find sources. Perhaps I will try to update the Wiki entry for Luckenwalde when it rains.
David If you do have contacts or access to files before the forseeable future from your past work experience we would be grateful for that input, as obtaining any details from 'official' sources of any sort are exceedingly hard to come by if at all. But records exist, somewhere (and no its not a conspiracy theory before anyone asks) TD
You may have noted my research usually works on public sources, a few of which are not readily found; the results of networking and the indirect approach. The snag is that official records are often not in the public domain, are in archives that are not nearby; or simply do not exist now e.g. which British Army formations were in India pre- and post-partition. Leaving aside records being destroyed in bonfires and as the FCO & MoD have demonstrated in an archive where they have been 'forgotten'.
I am just looking for ways to move this thread and subject forward, as alieneyes and myself have been working on this for sometime and as time permits. As you say public sources are bitty and hard to comeby taking a lot of time to find snippets. So if anything crops up on your travels we would appreciate a heads up TD
David, Your point about official records not often being in the public domain is well taken. I recall when Nigel Cawthorne was writing "The Iron Cage" he, too (and this is 1992) asked TNA about nominal rolls and was told "Retained by the Department" (presumably MoD, but from a Canadian serving in the British army and captured at Dunkirk, it could be one of the "services" based on the form he had to sign). Regards, Dave
alieneyes and TD, A few thoughts. What is on the sister US website? I've never been there and cannot recall the name. Even the German website, feldgrau? Although it might be American, not been there for many years. Ever written something for a "serious" journal or a veterans magazine e.g. British Legion. If official records are not available, what about private diaries held by descendants of PoW, record makers etc? Ever asked an open source researcher, who has links into Russia? I can only think of Bellingcat.
I am already a member on the sister site - nothing there. Have tried (with their help) to obtain records from NARA, but cannot as yet tie down exactly which file numbers are required - this with the help of a professional researcher who narrowed it down to a couple of sets of files but if anyone has circa $10,000 then we might be able to copy the US files and thats just on those repatriated via Odessa. The TNA say the files needed are with the MOD. The MOD say the files needed are with the TNA or FCO. The FCO say the files needed are with the TNA or MOD Tried Russian archives who end up, well being Russian, they say they have the files, I can have copies of them, so when you ask they ignore you and say 'what files' Difficult to obtain private diaries as those involved dont officially exist and as they were not repatriated it is assumed they are MIA, location unknown, not sure how they would have communicated anyway. Have been using newspaper reports to obtain details of those repatriated Have copied and read all the Military Mission files on the subject, these are not particularly enlightening Have a spreadsheet of all (I think) of the ships that docked in Odessa from Jan 1945 until Sep 1945, sometimes they how many POW's of which nationalities, sometimes just a total number, normally (95%) say nothing at all Crumbs are generally what one can find on this general subject, but we will slowly piece this together. Bill Rudd (the late and sadly missed Australian) has a web site that provides the list of all ANZAC's repatriated from Odessa and I am presently going through them and collating a much details on them as I can - his list often only has their name What else - no idea TD
One small point I forgot to mention - for an Allied ex POW to move between the holding camp at Odessa and through the Russian controls to access the ships that had arrived they needed a visa. These were applied for by the Military mission in Odessa to the Military Mission in Moscow who applied to the Visa section who issued them and then they were sent to Odessa where the details of each ex POW was verified as he went through the Russian control to allow him access to the ship. These lists of visa applications and approvals were kept by the Russians, they were also issued to UK, USA, France, Australia, New Zealand and several other countries that had ex POW's at Odessa, so possibly somewhere there are copies of these records. TD
From Archway (NZ Archives) Archway :: Item Full Description 2NZEF - Administration and organisation - Prisoners of War Ex Russia (R20107997) 1945 - 1945 Next time I am there will have a look, don't know when
As an example the ship below is the only one I have found that not only quantifies those on board but also shows their nationalities, its the only one to date I have found I that detail 08/03/45 Port Said Moreton Bay 421 UK 30 CAN 12 AUS 7 NZ 1207 USA 8 IND 8 EGY 8 PAL 1 GRE 1 POL 1 FR 1 NOR TD By the way the 451 UK beats the Hansard 150 just on one ship alone, thats how I know the number is bull*
This thread basically revolves around finding the details of those PWX (as they were officially noted) that were repatriated via Odessa, but I have been reading a document on the systems that were "put in place" by SHAEF in autumn of 1944, and I thought it would add to this thread by describing whjat was planned for those PWX that fell in Allied hands as opposed to Russian hands 33. PWX A plan had been made by SHAEF, in the autumn of 1944, for the evacuation of United Nations PW who would be overrun by the advance into GERMANY. The plan involved a central organisation run from SHAEF, called PWX (Prisoners of War Executive). The name was eventually used in general terms for the organisation, its staff, and, eventually, for repatriated PW themselves. The plan involved the provision of PWX Liaison Groups at major HQ, working through PWX Contact Officers who were intended to be sent forward by every possible means (possibly including air-dropping) to camps in which United Nations PW were held. In 21 Army Group the PWX organisation was controlled by the "A" staffs of the various formations concerned. The general policy on which PWX worked was that the personnel of over-run PW camps were to be instructed to remain in their camps until they could be evacuated in an orderly manner. This principle was adopted to avoid the hampering of operations by any uncontrolled movement of PW, and to simplify the problems of maintenance and documentation. It was realised that large numbers of PW would be found outside camps, and that these would be partly those who had been working away from main camps, and partly from those who would have broken camp as soon as an opportunity offered. The psychological desire of PW to move away from their camp areas was realised, and instructions were issued by the dropping of leaflets and through subterranean channels in an endeavour to counteract this tendency. It was estimated that some 275,000 United Nations PW would be uncovered by 21 Army Group during the advance into GERMANY, out of a total of about 2ΒΌ million held in greater GERMANY in camps and hospitals. Accurate figures of numbers and locations were hard to obtain and information became less and less accurate, and more delayed, as the GERMANS tried to move PW camps away from the front. It was decided that United Nations PW should be dealt with in three priorities in the following order:- BRITISH COMMONWEALTH and US, RUSSIAN, and others. Up to the end of hostilities, practically no action was taken except for those of the first category. In view of the impossibility of ensuring that all PW would be found in camps and would stay "put", it was realised that it would be necessary to set up a chain of evacuation, in the form of camps, to which individual PW could be directed. This chain would also be used for the controlled evacuation of those found in camps. Armies and corps formed ad hoc units for this purpose, generally from pioneer companies. In addition, to take care of the problem behind army boundaries, three new RHUs (X, Y and Z) were formed, one from each of Nos 103, 104 and 105 Rft Gps. A number of other RHUs, CRCs and transit camps were involved from time to time in the movement of PWX. All units concerned with the move of PWX were given special dusting, bathing, clothing and medical facilities, and provided with Red Cross services; the latter included both personnel and special PW parcels of small necessities and luxuries, such as razors and chocolate, which had been prepared and stored in the UK in readiness for this operation. The YMCA also gave much assistance, mainly by the provision of personnel to help organise amenities and in giving PWX an opportunity to talk to British men and women. AEC Teams were provided to give up-to-date information on world and allied news, but this scheme was never fully developed however, as the move of PW was generally too quick for full advantage to be taken of it. 21 Army Group was provided with BRITISH COMMONWEALTH, Naval and Air Force, US and other nations liaison officers, who were employed in giving special care to their own categories. The general principle of evacuation for BRITISH COMMONWEALTH/US PWX was by air. In the case of BRITISH PWX, some were flown direct to the UK and some were staged back, most of them through BRUSSELS. US PWX were directed to collecting camps in the LE HAVRE area. In addition to dealing with the evacuation of those uncovered by 21 Army Group, the rear links in the evacuation chain, notably BRUSSELS, were used for staging some of the BRITISH PW uncovered by the AMERICAN armies. The uncovering of PW camps, the collection of individual PW and evacuation were only just getting under weigh on a large scale by the end of the campaign. For those who need it the source is MCHS 0514 - Administrative History of 21 Army Group - 6 June 1944 - 8 May 1945 Admin History 21 Army Gp TD
