WW2 casualty notification details

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Kevin Trott, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    My gt-uncle was killed at El Alamein in October 1942, serving with 2KRRC. He is remembered on the Alamein memorial as he has no known grave. His family believed he had been killed by a landmine. My question is: would they have been told this officially, (e.g. by letter from the Battalion HQ)? or is there some record somewhere detailing the circumstances of his death? Any ideas most welcome.
     
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  2. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Possibly a mate who was with him ? I have heard of lots of fellow soldiers visiting surviving family . Just a suggestion. I have seen a few Company Comanders letters they vary in detail as do the Padres letters.

    Kyle
     
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  3. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

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  4. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    The normal official notification of an Army casualty was an Army From B104-82 (see below) - I don't think the army used telegrams for this (although the RAF and RN seem to have for initial notification followed by a letter), these are basically limited to "killed in action", Died of wounds" etc with no details of circumstances in the vast majority of cases.

    It does seem to have been an unofficial duty of the mans officer to write to family and explain a bit more (pretty much always saying they died instantly, felt no pain etc). I have a group of letters to a Tankie who was killed in Africa (and is also on the Alamein memorial) and his officer, Padre and crewmates all sent letters telling how he died. Also as Kyle said mates from a unit would sometimes go visit family - men quite often went with each other to visit family when on leave, so if your mate was killed and you had visited his home and been nicely treated you may feel a duty to go and express your sympathy and try put them at ease.
     

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  5. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    They may not have used a 'Telegram', but my Mother received notification of Dad being wounded, via the Telegram delivery service, i.e. the GPO (when it was still alive) chappie on his cycle or motorbike. Mum always said she got a telegram.
     

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  6. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Its not really an area I know much about, the difference between telegrams and letters, I was under the impression telegrams were the ones with a kind of tickertape type message stuck to a form and I'm sure I've seen them used by the RAF and RN but not the army - I was going on the format of the message rather than the delivery method.
     
  7. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    That is my understanding too. I was just trying to say that they used the Telegram delivery system to deliver the notifications. Mum said Telegram because the Telegram boy delivered it. Thing is, she already knew Dad was safe as he had gotten word home before the official notification arrived.
     
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  8. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    Many thanks to all trying to assist with this one. I’ve seen a few examples of these sort of form. Also letters like the one attached which came from the local annex of the War Office and were a bit more personal, giving more details of the circumstances of death. Also, there is always more detail regarding officers as opposed to ORs.
    Any formal letters relating to my gt- uncle’s death in action have been lost over the past 80 years or so. I just hoped there might have been some official record of exactly what happened to him somewhere. It seems that may not be the case.
     

    Attached Files:

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  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    You have a number of posts concerning your relative and this one states that he was with the 2nd Bn KRRC. Have you looked for their war diary for the date in question, they should provide details of the actions the unit was involved in? Perhaps a Regimental history? What details are in his service records, and are there any clues on CWGC?
    'The Rangers' KRRC research
     
  10. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    Hi Tony56,
    I have looked at War Diary for 2KRRC for the dates in question. It gives details of the action and gives the names of officers killed and wounded; only the total numbers of ORs killed is given - no names or details. I have read a couple of books giving individual accounts of the Battle of El Alamein [To War With Friends by Geoffrey Jameson and Into Dust and Fire by Rachel Cox] which are very informative but shed no light on the information I was looking for. Perhaps I’m expecting too much to find out much detail about a single Rifleman when so many were lost. CWGC only shows date of death and says he is named on the Alamein Memorial.
    Many thanks for trying to assist. The quest goes on...
     
  11. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Just took a little advice on this. The army didnt like losing their soldiers and with him `missing` is there perhaps a mention in the `Missing Men ` files for that Regiment ?

    Kyle
     
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  12. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

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  13. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    There are also the casualty lists but I don't believe we know a name or number to check.
     
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  14. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    Many thanks guys for all your interest and assistance. The links to Hansard (Thanks Tony56) are very useful and explain a lot about the subject.
    My gt-uncle was Rifleman 6847953, Horace H. Smith k.i.a. 27/10/42 serving with 2bn KRRC at El Alamein (previously with 1st bn. The Rangers) My grandmother (his older sister) was quite sure he had been killed by a landmine and, given that the battlefield was strewn with the things, that seems a perfectly reasonable explanation. Any official notification to that effect however has obviously been lost with the passing of the years.
    I have seen a few examples of Army Form B104-82B and they all seem to say "killed in action" and nothing else.
    Thanks again to all, I have certainly learned many previously unknown facts since joining the site.
     
  15. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    Here's the pages from the official history of 2nd Battalion KRRC in WW2 covering the time your gt-uncle was killed.

    Hope this helps

    Gus
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    The casualty lists confirm killed in action, as opposed to missing/wounded/accident etc.

    From CWGC, these men from the 2nd Bn were also killed the same day, may be worth keeping your eye open for these names in any history or account that you read, just three on the El Alamein Memorial

    Number Surname Forename Cemetery
    5343830 ATKINS REGINALD WALTER HARVEY ALAMEIN MEMORIAL
    6853039 BARKER ERNEST JOHN EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    6896617 BROOKMAN AMBROSE EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    6851081 DENNIS REGINALD BERTIE ALAMEIN MEMORIAL
    6850850 JEFFERY GEORGE WILLIAM EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    6855881 MURPHY THOMAS EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    6210574 PARRY JOHN ALFRED EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    6850937 READ LAWRENCE EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY
    6847953 SMITH HORACE HENRY ALAMEIN MEMORIAL
    6897433 YOUNG THOMAS EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY

    Of the other two on the memorial Atkins was reported KIA and Dennis was first reported missing then presumed KIA.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  17. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    Thanks again Tony56
     
  18. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    And thank you Gus. All very informative stuff. So glad I joined this Forum
     
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  19. Kevin Trott

    Kevin Trott Member

    Does anybody know if a man was originally reported as ‘missing’ how long would it be before he was confirmed as ‘killed in action’ and NOK informed?
     

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