WREN Ellen Saunders & parents

Hi Tony,

Surprised & astonished is how I feel. The topic you write about here are my Grandparents & Aunt, all of whom I never met but have been trying to research for some time. My late Father, Roger Saunders & his brother Jack were the only two to surviving members of the family from the bombing that killed their parents & sister. My Father died a number of years ago without having talked about his ordeal. I, like my grandfather am a Royal Navy veteran & along side my own service record I have my Grandfathers, George Condette (Condetti) Saunders naval record. It is, sadly all I have to know of his life. I would dearly like to know more. I was born in Hammersmith, lived in White City until I was 5. I am the eldest of 6 children (now 62) of Roger & Irene Saunders. I have no photos or any type of memories relating to my Grandparents so I would be grateful, if you have any, for you to forward them to me.

Thanks
Bob Saunders

bobsaunders55@fsmail.net

 

Hi Bob,

Welcome to the forum,

Tony will be around to help you soon.

Regards Michael.

 

Welcome to the forum, Bob. Hopefully it will help your family to remember the members that were lost to the war.

Jos

 

Hello Bob
Welcome to the Forum

regards
Clive

 

Hi all, thanks for the Welcome.

Bob

 

Hello Bob

Welcome to the forum.
My interest is exclusively researching female service casualties of all wars/campaigns. Unfortunately I would have no record of any of the other Saunders family. My interest was primarily with regard to Helen the Wren casualty and her Mother and Father, being killed in the same incident, naturally got involved in her profile. Sorry that I am unable to assist.

Tony

 

Disappointed, but still content with the information you have provided, thanks for that. I will continue to search, I have Granddaughters, nephews & nieces that should know about their ancestors, even if it's as sad a story as it is. On a further sad note, my Father, Roger, son of George married in 1946. Their first child they named after his Mother & Sister, Ellen. Ellen the 3rd died before she reached her first birthday. Life is tough......thanks anyway

 

Bump for Michelle
MHS69


regards
Clive

 

Updated

 

Many many thanks Clive, much appreciated. Since I found this site & this thread I've pieced together the Naval records & movements of both my Grandfather & Aunt Ellen. The MOD Naval records Secretariat provided Ellen's WRNS service record. I had already in my possession my Grandfathers. Being ex RN myself & having spent time in all the UK & South African Naval bases my Grandfather was station it was fairly straightforward to write. I also have my own Fathers Military record, he & brother Jack both survived the blast. Based on all I've gathered I have, for the last few months been writing a book about their short Naval careers & the events that led up to their deaths on 23rd August 1944. I plan to publish via Amazon Kindle before the 70th anniversary & distribute it to my family. The book is entitled 'To Painful for Words'. I have dedicated the book to my Brothers & sisters & our Grandchildren.
Thanks again
Bob

 

Pete, I got your details from a thread started back in 2013 between Clive(CL1) and Tony(Tonym) & hope you don't mind me contacting you.

I was wondering if you could tell me where I can now view your database 'Civilians killed & wounded in London'?' Also although I appreciate it says civilians can you tell me if it includes service personnel on leave at time of injury(to the best of your knowledge)? I am specifically looking at doodlebug attack in early hours of 23/08/1944 in the New Southgate/White City area, particularly Blaxland House where my grandparents & aunt were killed & injured(prior to passing). My grandfather & aunt were both home on leave from the RN at the time & I'm looking for any info available for them & my grandmother. But I would also like to know how many others suffered injury & loss from the same incident.

Can I just say thank you for all the work you have done in compiling the databases, it truly is a magnificent undertaking & as from my own experience being able to find answers from those sad events does help.

Kindest regards

Michelle

 

Michelle, I got your message (thanks Clive). I want to apologise for this - the publisher has been dragging its heels. I will contact them this week to see what is going on.

There are very few military casualties mentioned. Those that were entered were later removed from the casualty bureau database. But I have kept the original entries in my database.

Your relatives were taken to Fulham Palace Road Mortuary, W6. It lists George Saunders as being 45 years old (the ages were often approximate) and states he lived at 116 Blaxland House. He was assigned mortuary number 2587/15. This means he was the 15th person to be 'checked in' at the mortuary and 2587 was the Police incident number. A few dead were issued with 2595/xx (which I presume means their bodies were recovered some time after the blast).

Ellen Junior was assigned number 2587/16 (same address), while Ellen Senior, was listed as 2587/14 and her age was given as 42 years of age.

Those injured were taken to Hammersmith hospital, Ducane Road, Shepherds Bush W12 (and one died, there, of their injuries). You could look to see if there are surviving hospital records. The injured were assigned with the number 2583/xx. Others were taken to Harefield Emergency Hospital, Uxbridge, Middlesex and issued with number 2593/xx

The blast seems to have killed and injured those living at number 10, 13, 14, 15 (death), 17, 18, 28, 34, 35, 36, 37, 39 (death), 40 (deaths), 41 (deaths), 42, 46 (deaths), 49, 55, 116 (death) 125 (death)

By my reckoning, the blast killed 17 (including three killed at nearby Auckland House) and injured 26. This last statistic only includes those admitted to hospital. It does not include the walking wounded and those given first aid.

 

Hello Pete,

Thank you so much for all the information! I had no idea so many were killed & injured, though it does make sense especially when you see a photo of the damage to Blaxland House. It makes the fact my father & uncle made it out alive seem even more of a miracle. The only thing that surprised me was that Ellen Jr was checked in alongside her mum & dad, as I was led to believe she had survived the initial blast & was taken to hospital but died later the same day from her injuries. Not that it makes a difference in the end.

It's amazing to me that any records still exist & that people like yourself have taken so much time & effort to collate it all into a database for others to be able to reference. I cannot thank you enough! Now I'd expected to have to pay to access the information you've given me so I was wondering if there is a charity or something I could make a donation to on your behalf? Please let me know.

Thank you again & kindest regards,

Michelle

 

I was more than happy to help. If you feel the information is worthy of a donation, then my favoured charity is Help for Heroes. I know any contributions would be gratefully accepted. Thank you.

 

Apologies for delay replying to you Pete. I am very happy to make a contribution to Help for Heroes, so please consider it done... and once again many thanks for your help.

Kindest regards

Michelle

 

What a fantastic piece of research you've done on this young wren! As I'm sure you all know, 2017 is the 100th anniversary of the formation of the WRNS, and the "WRNS 100" project is well underway, with the Association Of Wrens taking the lead (see their webpage). Wren Ellen Saunders is recorded, along with every other member of the WRNS and (since 1993 when the WRNS merged fully into the Royal Navy) RN Women that have died in service, in the WRNS Book Of Remembrance which is displayed in the WRNS Church, St-Mary-le-Strand in central London. When the book was first commissioned, the decision was taken to only record the name, rank/rate, and date on which the wren died, although in many cases only the name & date of death is recorded (see photo attached). Over the years it has been felt that the base or establishment where the wren served, and even her age, should also have been included. Over 300 wrens died in WWII alone, and perhaps one day a short background story to each of them (Unit, photo, home town, pre-war occupation, family, cause of death, burial place, or the like?) will be recorded somewhere, perhaps in a book for publication, or maybe online; I sincerely hope so. I wish I had the time to do the masses of research myself.....perhaps one day, when I retire. I have a lot to learn, believe me, about researching things!
In the eyes of many, especially the few surviving WWII wrens, those wrens who died 1939-45 seem to have been largely forgotten. Shame.
Which brings me to the reason I'm posting here. Ellen's CWGC headstone doesn't (unusually for a wren) have her RN unit (HMS ........) engraved on it. I've tried (with my limited knowledge!) to find out exactly whereabouts she was serving in August 1944, but without success. Does anyone have information as to which base or establishment she was serving in at the time of her death? I'm ex-RN and so can easily research the unit myself if I'm given the name.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks again.
Mackan.

P.S. I should state now that it's possible that I might also have a distant-family interest in Ellen.......my mother's maiden name was Saunders, and her family are from west London. Fortunately my mum is still alive and spritely, so I'll ask her about this when I next visit her. She has vivid memories of London in WWII, especially the V1 and V2 attacks.

 

UK, British Army and Navy Birth, Marriage and Death Records, 1730-1960
Name: Ellen Saunders
Event: Death
Birth Date: 8 Sep 1925
Birth Place: London
Death Date: 23 Aug 1944
Death Age: 18



states HMS Dipper


TD

 

HMS Dipper crew taking a break August 44

THE NAVY OFF DUTY. AUGUST 1944, HMS DIPPER, HENSTRIDGE. RECREATIONS ENJOYED BY NAVY MEN AND WRENS AT ROYAL NAVAL AIR STATIONS IN SOMERSET IN THEIR OFF DUTY HOURS. (A 25395)

 

Superb! Thanks TD. That document that you have access to is pretty special.....the information given for each entry is obviously a great starting point for researching individuals. Where is the document held? Is it TNA? Thanks again.
Mackan.

 

Hi Mackan

It is in the database of files on Ancestry and states:

Source Information
Ancestry.com. UK, British Army and Navy Birth, Marriage and Death Records, 1730-1960 [database on-line]. Povo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2016.
Original data: The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey, England.
Admiralty: Service Records, Registers, Returns and Certificates. ADM 6/433-439.
Admiralty and predecessors: Office of the Director General of the Medical Department of the Navy and predecessors: Service Registers and Registers of Deaths and Injuries. ADM 104/102-118,122-149.
Admiralty: Royal Marines, Chatham Division: Order, Discharge and Letter Books, Registers and Returns. ADM 183/114-120.
Admiralty: Royal Marines, Plymouth Division: Order, Discharge and Letter Books, Registers and Returns. ADM 184/43-54.
Admiralty: Naval Casualties, Indexes, War Grave Rolls and Statistics Book, First World War. ADM 242/1-15.
Admiralty and Ministry of Defence: Chaplain of the Fleet and successors: Registers of Baptisms, Confirmations, Marriages and Burials. ADM 338/141,145.
War Office: Officers' Birth Certificates, Wills and Personal Papers. WO 42/1-75.
War Office and predecessors: Records of Militia Regiments. WO 68/429A,441C,441D,497,499A,499B.
Ordnance Office, Military Branch, and War Office: Royal Artillery Records of Service and Papers. WO 69/67-69,72,73,551-573,575-577,579,580,582.

TD