WREN Ellen Saunders & parents

Hello colleagues, I have a problem with three casualties :-

Wren Helen Saunders, WRNS – Her father, Stoker 1st Class George C. Saunders, R.N. and mother civilian Ellen Rose Saunders.
They all died in the same incident on 23rd August 1944 that appears to have been a ‘Doodlebug’ incident in the New Southgate/White City area of London. The only detailed incident that I have discovered in that area for the same date was the Standard Telephone and Cables Co. in New Southgate giving full details of the damage and casualties of the factory but no reference to any damage to the surrounding area; so whether there was a second D.B. or the same incident is unknown.

However my main problem is their burials; civilian, Ellen Rose Saunders’s CWGC Cert. quotes ‘Died at Blaxland House’ which is White City Estate and confirms her husband George died there also, Wren Ellen obviously died with them. Ellen and her father George are recorded as buried in St. Pancras Cemetery both Special Memorial, Row 3. but poor Mum appears to be buried elsewhere, her CWGC Cert. records reporting authority as Hammersmith, Metropolitan Borough, obviously no indication of cemetery. An enquiry to Hammersmith Borough some months ago went unanswered.

Any information greatly appreciated and the bonus would obviously be photographs of their graves.

Tony

 

Hello Tony

Photos attached of Father and Daughter Headstones from St Pancras.
The Headstone of G.Saunders states wife Ellen Rose and Daughter Ellen were killed with him by enemy action.

Blaxlands House,White City was the place of death.Photo attached of damage.
http://pinterest.com/pin/543598617492526407/


SAUNDERS, GEORGE C.

Rank:

Stoker 1st Class

Service No:

P/KX. 146406

Date of Death:

23/08/1944

Age:

39

Regiment/Service:

Royal Navy



H.M.S. victory.

Grave Reference

Special Memorial, Row 3.

Cemetery

ST. PANCRAS CEMETERY

Additional Information:
Son of Isabel Saunders and stepson of Richard Mantell, of Euston London; husband of Ellen Rose Saunders and father of Wren Ellen Saunders, W.R.N.S., all of whom were killed in the same incident.



SAUNDERS, ELLEN

Rank:

Wren

Service No:

92045

Date of Death:

23/08/1944

Age:

19

Regiment/Service:

Women's Royal Naval Service

Grave Reference

Special Memorial, Row 3.

Cemetery

ST. PANCRAS CEMETERY

Additional Information:
Daughter of Sto. 1st Cl. George C. Saunders R.N. and of Ellen Rose Saunders (nee Rogers) all of whom were killed in the same incident.


SAUNDERS, ELLEN ROSE

Rank:

Civilian

Date of Death:

23/08/1944

Age:

40

Regiment/Service:

Civilian War Dead





Reporting Authority

HAMMERSMITH, METROPOLITAN BOROUGH

Additional Information:
of 16 Blaxland House, White City Estate. Daughter of Albert Henry and Rose Emily Rogers, of 12 The Greenway, The Hyde, Middlesex; wife of A.B. George C. Saunders, R.N. (killed in same incident). Died at Blaxland House.

 

Hello Tony confirmed it was a V1 incident
I have just checked Then and Now Blitz volume 3

page 438
On 23rd August a day on which the main V1 incidents were at the White City Estate ,Hammersmith.


regards
Clive

 

Hello Tony
Findagrave states Ellen Rose Saunders is buried
Hammersmith Old Cemetery
this is incorrect
She is buried St Pancras


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=24644115

regards
Clive

 

Thanks Clive

Most welcome particularly the bombed flats.Pity that Ellen Rose could not have been buried with her husband,if it had been a different date I could have understood. However, will have to find out where Mum is buried.

Cheers, Tony

 

Hello Tony
find a grave states she is buried as above


Regards
Clive

 

hello Tony based on the findagrave info
the link below shows that Hammersmith and Fulham council have records
phone number
Contact us




020 8748 3020
Mon-Fri 8am-8pm




http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/Leisure_and_Culture/Libraries/Archives/23432_Cemetery_Records.asp


regards
Clive

 

Clive

I must be getting past it! I searched the Ham&Ful. website and did not find a Cemetery records contact number anyway thanks again and I must confess I didn't think of Find-a-grave but there you go, have to take more water with it!!!

Cheers, Tony

 

Can I just urge a word of caution in automatically accepting that Mrs Saunders is buried in this cemetery? From what is currently posted to that website there is no indication as to how the person posting it has obtained the information (e.g. the burial register, headstone memorial or such like).

The case of this family reminds me of a French civilian family I was researching while in Normandy (Calvados). From the wartime testimony I had in my possession, three of the family had been killed - father, mother and daughter. Two of the deaths (father and daughter) were registered at the Town Hall (the 'Mairie'). They had been buried in the local churchyard.

However, there was no official record of the mother's death. When I asked about this, the answer was rather grim. No identifiable remains of the mother had been found in the burned out building. The father and daughter (a young girl in this instance) had been identified and so their death and burial had been registered. Basically, in the absence of any remains to make a positive identification and burial the mother's death was 'assumed'.

So, could it be something similar for the Saunders family you are currently researching? Possibly all the human remains from that household were buried in St Pancras cemetery, including the civilian Mrs Saunders? The father and daughter, being in the Navy, would be entitled to a 'Special Memorial' but the mother, as a civilian, would not.

It could do with better clarification from the CWGC. Hope you get it resolved one way or another.

 

hello ritsonvaljos

CWGC as you know will not have the place of burial only the reporting authority details
As you know the reporting authority does not usually link the casualty to be buried in that Borough
if Tony can work on the Hammersmith Old Cemetery burial list it is a start.
If she is not buried there a possible chance it is St Pancras which will then have to be investigated futher and I can assist with that.
As stated perhaps there were no remains and the only mention of Ellen Rose is on her husbands headstone.


Also it may well be worth Tony contacting forum member Pete Wood

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/42685-civilians-killed-and-wounded-in-london-test-finished/
regards
Clive

 

ritsonvaljos

Thanks for your interest. Having witnessed similar situations in my WW2 Civil Defence days I am aware of what you are saying. However, with the confusion of the time I wonder what, if any, liaison there was between CWGC and Hammersmith Borough Council.

I shall contact Margravine Cemetery, formerly Old Hammersmith, to request possible details,in particular grave reference,and the background to my request also, to counteract their possible suggestion of a personal record search, I will advise them that due to a war service disability I am now unable to undertake distance travelling and offer reimbursement costs. Hopefuly some success.

Will advise the outcome.

Tony




Tony

 

Hi Tony, don't know if any of this info attached will help your search. I wonder if Ellen Rose left instruction in her Will to be buried in a family plot perhaps? Don't know how you go about obtaining copies of Wills in England.

Found a couple of news articles about the Saunders. Looks like Ellen (jnr) survived initially.

 

Thanks Amberdog

One problen I can open up the attachments but how do I print a copy. Unlike a Jpeg I don't get a "Save picture"

 

Hello Tony


Ellen Rose Saunders (Mother) is buried in St Pancras Cemetery London in a family plot .Plot Y6 grave 334.
I have attached a scan of the burial details and photos of the plot area . They died at 16 Blaxland House 23/8/44.I searched for the headstone but none found Unfortunately as you can see the plot along with many others is in a poor state hence the Special Memorials for G and E Saunders in the CWGC Memorial plot.
Also attached is the Memorial Plinth in the CWGC plot explaining that the graves were lost or not marked.


regards
Clive

 

Cheers Clive

As I said before must be getting past it, I never gave that solution a thought.

Also thanks for the St. Pancras details fortunately hadn't sent my email yet. It is also satisfying to know that Ellen Rose is at least in the same cemetery as her husband and daughter.

I think that just about wraps it up now so thanks all for your interest and assistance.

Tony

 

Hello Tony

They are all buried together in a family plot Y6 grave 334 but the grave is lost.
The plot is approx 100 yards from the CWGC memorial headstones.

So a positive ending


regards
Clive

 

Well done for getting a positive result. Evidently, the 'Find a Grave' reference proved to be misleading.

 

Great detective work Clive well done.
But isn't it sad that their grave has been lost.

 

Hello Michael
yes it is sad
In the CWGC headstone plot they are all Special Memorials 191 of them.All the graves are lost or not marked within the Cemetery.


regards
Clive